I have a question.

[kross]

For those of you who believe in a select/chosen people before time as we know it - please, how do YOU explain what Jesus said in Luke 19 v 10:

"for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Because HIS chosen are the sheep of HIS flock that are gone astray and HE leaves the 99 and goes after them. HE calls them by name and they know HIS voice and will not follow another.

The shepherd goes to the sheepgate and calls out those who are HIS, only. HE doesn't call those that belong to someone else.

Let me understand completely here - the "chosen" need to be called because they have gone astray? So in a sense, Jesus didn't just die only for the sinners but the 'chosen" as well? But they are already chosen from pre Creation right? It's not making much sense.

Explain please.

Salvation is through faith in JESUS CHRIST. All and only those who come to JESUS will be saved. My individual sins and my individual responsibility for my sins are covered by the shead blood of JESUS who was sent to redeam HIS people from the fall. That is why HE was named JESUS, because HE would save HIS people.

JESUS died for the chosen only.

Why does that confuse you?

[Guest HIS girl]

For those of you who believe in a select/chosen people before time as we know it - please, how do YOU explain what Jesus said in Luke 19 v 10:

"for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Because HIS chosen are the sheep of HIS flock that are gone astray and HE leaves the 99 and goes after them. HE calls them by name and they know HIS voice and will not follow another.

The shepherd goes to the sheepgate and calls out those who are HIS, only. HE doesn't call those that belong to someone else.

Let me understand completely here - the "chosen" need to be called because they have gone astray? So in a sense, Jesus didn't just die only for the sinners but the 'chosen" as well? But they are already chosen from pre Creation right? It's not making much sense.

Explain please.

Salvation is through faith in JESUS CHRIST. All and only those who come to JESUS will be saved. My individual sins and my individual responsibility for my sins are covered by the shead blood of JESUS who was sent to redeam HIS people from the fall. That is why HE was named JESUS, because HE would save HIS people.

JESUS died for the chosen only.

Why does that confuse you?

Actually kross - I'm not confused about the Bible - only the notion about the "chosen" few. If you read all my posts properly, you would know that.

If there were pre-creation chosen people destined to spend eternity in Heaven with God/Jesus, then that means the others who are made simply to go to Hell and were also out of 'God's pleasure" to do so. That is not God. If God IS LOVE, and we were in His Mind pre-Creation, then He had a loving relationship in mind - not death. Seperation from God from the beginning was the result of the Fall - it didn't start that way.

With this "chosen" belief - there is no need for Jesus to be born and die on the Cross because THEY are already "saved" in the first place. Jesus death only makes sense if He died for sinners who had NO HOPE and He extends Hope and reconciliation - if you are one of the chosen - you would be immune...UNLESS, they also sin and need help. We were all born under sin, that is why Jesus came - to release us. So the "chosen" who are also born in sin would seem to NEED this helping Hand by Jesus too - so then where does their exclusivism come into it? It would seem then, that they are no different to the ones prepared beforehand for Hell - then the chosen would seem to be on the same playing field as their sinful Hellbound bros and sis's....that is illogical and doesn't make sense, considering they are the "chosen". The whole concept of it is flawed.

You say ALL AND ONLY THOSE WHO COME TO JESUS WILL BE SAVED. So that would imply that considering one has freewill - even some of the "chosen" may not respond...hmmmm...still not adding up, especially since they were pre-chosen befor time.

I'll stick to the Bible thanks.

Salvation and reconciliation for ALL men - for ALL who respond to Him.

I may wrap this thread up as it's going in circles and it hasn't progressed much.

[kross]

For those of you who believe in a select/chosen people before time as we know it - please, how do YOU explain what Jesus said in Luke 19 v 10:

"for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Because HIS chosen are the sheep of HIS flock that are gone astray and HE leaves the 99 and goes after them. HE calls them by name and they know HIS voice and will not follow another.

The shepherd goes to the sheepgate and calls out those who are HIS, only. HE doesn't call those that belong to someone else.

Let me understand completely here - the "chosen" need to be called because they have gone astray? So in a sense, Jesus didn't just die only for the sinners but the 'chosen" as well? But they are already chosen from pre Creation right? It's not making much sense.

Explain please.

Salvation is through faith in JESUS CHRIST. All and only those who come to JESUS will be saved. My individual sins and my individual responsibility for my sins are covered by the shead blood of JESUS who was sent to redeam HIS people from the fall. That is why HE was named JESUS, because HE would save HIS people.

JESUS died for the chosen only.

Why does that confuse you?

Actually kross - I'm not confused about the Bible - only the notion about the "chosen" few. If you read all my posts properly, you would know that.

If there were pre-creation chosen people destined to spend eternity in Heaven with God/Jesus, then that means the others who are made simply to go to Hell and were also out of 'God's pleasure" to do so. That is not God. If God IS LOVE, and we were in His Mind pre-Creation, then He had a loving relationship in mind - not death. Seperation from God from the beginning was the result of the Fall - it didn't start that way.

With this "chosen" belief - there is no need for Jesus to be born and die on the Cross because THEY are already "saved" in the first place. Jesus death only makes sense if He died for sinners who had NO HOPE and He extends Hope and reconciliation - if you are one of the chosen - you would be immune...UNLESS, they also sin and need help. Then the chosen would seem to be on the same playing field as the their sinful Hellbound bros and sis's....that is illogical and doesn't make sense.

You say ALL AND ONLY THOSE WHO COME TO JESUS WILL BE SAVED. So that would imply that considering one has freewill - even some of the "chosen" may not respond...hmmmm...still not adding up, especially since they were pre-chosen befor time.

I'll stick to the Bible thanks.

Salvation and reconciliation for ALL men - for ALL who respond to Him.

I may wrap this thread up as it's going in circles and it hasn't progressed much.

It always goes in circles. I think that is because you think people, of their own freewill, choose GOD. As long as your belief is that GOD will not "violate" the freewill of men, then you can not grasp that men choose GOD because HE sets their will free and then adds a little extra push in the direction of choosing JESUS.

Paul preached the gospel against his will. Jonah preached to Ninevah against his will. Pharoah's heart was hardened by GOD violating his freewill. Romans 9:11-15 is all about GOD violating man's "freewill".

I do not get why you do not get what I am saying. I guess I just do not write plainly.

All who are chosen will come. Only those who are chosen will come. The HOLY SPIRIT will not fail to save any person HE sets out to save. Salvation comes when the HOLY SPIRIT breathes life into a dead person. "You must be born of the SPIRIT", "And you HE made alive who were dead in sins" it is not until we are made alive that we can understand spiritual things. The need for salvation is a spiritual understanding. It can not come until a person is"born again" and once a person is born again, they will be drawn to the GOD of life and will learn and understand spiritual things.

I hated and fought against these doctrins for a couple of years when I got saved. But I read it in the Bible and as much as I did not comprehend it, I had to accept it.

HIS blessings on your cotinued efforts to understand us silly people.

[dcampsart]

Paul preached the gospel against his will. Jonah preached to Ninevah against his will. Pharoah's heart was hardened by GOD violating his freewill. Romans 9:11-15 is all about GOD violating man's "freewill".

I would assume you mean that Paul, before his conversion, would've had nothing to do with the "way" that he set out to destroy and certainly couldn't have pictured himself a preacher of the Gospel without God's election process being somewhat, if not a lot, forced on him... yes?

I thought I'd throw the verses in below but I doubt you meant anything about his unwillingness to preach after his conversion.

16For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

17For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. [1 Cor 9:16-17]

Just wondering...

[dcampsart]

Paul preached the gospel against his will. Jonah preached to Ninevah against his will. Pharoah's heart was hardened by GOD violating his freewill. Romans 9:11-15 is all about GOD violating man's "freewill".

I would assume you mean that Paul, before his conversion, would've had nothing to do with the "way" that he set out to destroy and certainly couldn't have pictured himself a preacher of the Gospel without God's election process being somewhat, if not a lot, forced on him... yes?

I thought I'd throw the verses in below but I doubt you meant anything about his unwillingness to preach after his conversion.

16For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

17For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. [1 Cor 9:16-17]

Just wondering...

Just curious here...

I wonder what would've happened to Paul if, through his own free will, he would've rejected God's call inspite of his amazing experience meeting the Lord? Even if nothing happened to him for resisting God's election, we certainly wouldn't have had his wonderful writings in the NT for our benefit.

[Guest HIS girl]

Hardening of the heart kross is a willful disobedience repeated over time - like layers being put done - till there is a point of no return.

In Exodus it shows the Egyptian King wanting to eradicate the male Hebrew children for fear (the Hebrews) would some day rise up against them and overpower them - this particular King had a hatred for the Hebrews and over time this hatred, was hardened.

Exodus 3 v 19" "So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My wonders which I will do on it's midst; and after that he will let you go."

I believe Pharaohs heart was already hard toward the Hebrews -

Exodus 5 v2: And Pharaoh said' "Who is the LORD, that I should obey His voice to let Israel go? I do not know the LORD, nor will I let Israel go."

Exodus 6 v 3: "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt."

I see no problem with this verse since v 5 shows his disdain for the LORD. God ALREADY had something to work with.

God didn't randomly just pick someone for the sake of making His power known. He does not need us to do that.

The plagues that God sent to Egypt were a direct assualt on the Ancient Egyptian God's themselves - showing God's sovereignty.

[dcampsart]

Is Herb Evans commentary acknowledged as sound by the broader theological community?

To be honest... I can't say one way or the other. I was doing an internet search for commentaries when I came across a website of his. I noticed your reference verses in one of your replies and your thoughts.

I mainly wanted to show another example of someone's interpretation that may be refuted by someone else... then someone else... then...

I'm guilty of trying to stimulate feedback so I may obtain as many sides to the whole God's will verus man's will topic to help me understand and maybe... someday... make up my own mind. As it stands right now, I can see why the bible refers to a double-minded man as unstable. I don't want to be tossed to and fro anymore with every wind of doctrine. I want to grow and settle!

I envy people who can choose one way or another and "lock in" or stand firm for what they believe. I have a major problem with the "what if" syndrome.

[Guest HIS girl]

Is Herb Evans commentary acknowledged as sound by the broader theological community?

To be honest... I can't say one way or the other. I was doing an internet search for commentaries when I came across a website of his. I noticed your reference verses in one of your replies and your thoughts.

I mainly wanted to show another example of someone's interpretation that may be refuted by someone else... then someone else... then...

I'm guilty of trying to stimulate feedback so I may obtain as many sides to the whole God's will verus man's will topic to help me understand and maybe... someday... make up my own mind. As it stands right now, I can see why the bible refers to a double-minded man as unstable. I don't want to be tossed to and fro anymore with every wind of doctrine. I want to grow and settle!

I envy people who can choose one way or another and "lock in" or stand firm for what they believe. I have a major problem with the "what if" syndrome.

I understand -

It's more effective if you keep it sweet and simple.

The Bible is the bedrock of our Path we have accepted to follow - We heed His Word through the guidance of the Holy Spirit's leading - if we stick to that - then we will see errors in others interpretations of the Bible.

Even great theologians have "their own meanings" in some areas - although not cancelling out the rest of their teachings. It just requires discernment - this is not a quick and easy thing - but from studying the Word daily.

[dcampsart]

Exodus 3 v 19" "So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My wonders which I will do on it's midst; and after that he will let you go."

I believe Pharaohs heart was already hard toward the Hebrews - (maybe so, through time, but God clearly declares to Moses that he will harden his heart... I don't believe it matters at what stage or how long Pharaoh hardened his own heart... I've seen people who already were hard, mean and nasty of their own doing but, looking back, I believe God made them worse for his own glory... I won't beat you up with the details of how I've experienced this sort of person in the past)

Exodus 5 v2: And Pharaoh said' "Who is the LORD, that I should obey His voice to let Israel go? I do not know the LORD, nor will I let Israel go."

Look at the conflict in wills in this verse where Pharaoh arrogantly declares he would NOT let the people go and God's preordained outcome declaring he WOULD let the people go! Of course, we know who's will was forced on the other.

Exodus 6 v 3: "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt."(It doesn't state at what stage Pharaoh's self-induced hardening was at. Why would it matter to God? He could further harden the hardest of hard and even harden the meekest of meek if he so... CHOSE)

I see no problem with this verse since v 5 shows his disdain for the LORD. God ALREADY had something to work with.

God didn't randomly just pick someone for the sake of making His power known. He does not need us to do that. (No he doesn't but the verse you stated above in Exodus 6:3 declares exactly that... God targeted Pharaoh... I don't believe it was random in God's mind but his choice was this particular man to reveal and multiply his (God's) signs and wonders in the land)

[Guest HIS girl]

='dcampsart'

God didn't randomly just pick someone for the sake of making His power known. He does not need us to do that. (No he doesn't but the verse you stated above in Exodus 6:3 declares exactly that... God targeted Pharaoh... I don't believe it was random in God's mind but his choice was this particular man to reveal and multiply his (God's) signs and wonders in the land)

IMO the reason why Pharaoh was the subject of God's interest wasn't only because he was the leader of Ancient Egypt but ALSO the Pharaohs reigned as gods. The reason I think this is because with each plague - it is a show of God's dominance over the so called powers of the gods of ancient Egypt and the last one being the death of the first born males in the Egyptians households...even Pharaoh/god could not save his own son.