I have a question.

[kross]

Paul preached the gospel against his will. Jonah preached to Ninevah against his will. Pharoah's heart was hardened by GOD violating his freewill. Romans 9:11-15 is all about GOD violating man's "freewill".

I would assume you mean that Paul, before his conversion, would've had nothing to do with the "way" that he set out to destroy and certainly couldn't have pictured himself a preacher of the Gospel without God's election process being somewhat, if not a lot, forced on him... yes?

I thought I'd throw the verses in below but I doubt you meant anything about his unwillingness to preach after his conversion.

16For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

17For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. [1 Cor 9:16-17]

Just wondering...

Actually, to me those verses say he preaches the word against his will. Necessity is laid upon me by who? Woe to me if I do not. In the KJV the last statement is "but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship" which to me is his point, he preachesagainst his will and thus is entrusted with a stewardship.Paul never believed he deserved a reward.

[dcampsart]

Just curious here...

I wonder what would've happened to Paul if, through his own free will, he would've rejected God's call inspite of his amazing experience meeting the Lord? Even if nothing happened to him for resisting God's election, we certainly wouldn't have had his wonderful writings in the NT for our benefit.

As I

[Guest HIS girl]

Please I need an answer.

1)- Did God orchestrate the Fall?

2)- Why did the Fall have to take place? What purpose is it serving if there are the pre chosen?

3)- Why not just have Paradise on Earth with the pre-chosen folk?

4)- Those that are not chosen - what is the purpose of their existence? Or can they "choose" Jesus and then BECOME one of the "chosen"?

These are questions I have not had a definite answer to.

[kross]

Just curious here...

I wonder what would've happened to Paul if, through his own free will, he would've rejected God's call inspite of his amazing experience meeting the Lord? Even if nothing happened to him for resisting God's election, we certainly wouldn't have had his wonderful writings in the NT for our benefit.

As I

[dcampsart]

Paul preached the gospel against his will. Jonah preached to Ninevah against his will. Pharoah's heart was hardened by GOD violating his freewill. Romans 9:11-15 is all about GOD violating man's "freewill".

I would assume you mean that Paul, before his conversion, would've had nothing to do with the "way" that he set out to destroy and certainly couldn't have pictured himself a preacher of the Gospel without God's election process being somewhat, if not a lot, forced on him... yes?

I thought I'd throw the verses in below but I doubt you meant anything about his unwillingness to preach after his conversion.

16For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

17For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. [1 Cor 9:16-17]

Just wondering...

Actually, to me those verses say he preaches the word against his will. Necessity is laid upon me by who? Woe to me if I do not. In the KJV the last statement is "but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship" which to me is his point, he preachesagainst his will and thus is entrusted with a stewardship.Paul never believed he deserved a reward.

Huh... I too have always interpreted that there was definitely an "unction" or "burden" driving him to preach... as if it was almost forced on him but I thought the two main points to be seen here is that he always stays in a state of "not thinking more highly of himself than he ought" when he says that he had nothing to glory of because of the driving force behind his motivation. Secondly, It seemed important to him to make it clear to others that it was far better to be "willing" to preach than to do so begrudgingly!

Oh well...

[dcampsart]

Amazing to me is the original Greek meaning for the word

[kross]

Please I need an answer.

1)- Did God orchestrate the Fall?

2)- Why did the Fall have to take place? What purpose is it serving if there are the pre chosen?

3)- Why not just have Paradise on Earth with the pre-chosen folk?

4)- Those that are not chosen - what is the purpose of their existence? Or can they "choose" Jesus and then BECOME one of the "chosen"?

These are questions I have not had a definite answer to.

1) Planned it is a better term.The serpent orchestrated it.

2)The world was created to show us GOD and to magnify HIM. The fall shows us the difference betwen evil and GOD, between what we see as human good and the real good which is of GOD. The fall established the foundation upon which the love of GOD is built in that GOD planned to give HIS son as a ransom for many. This to glorify HIS grace and mercy. It is all done for HIS purposes according to HIS will.

3) Why not just have paradise on earth period? Why did GOD make it like this? (romans 9:19) If HE knows who will choose HIM of their own free will by looking forward from the foundation of the earth (which of course you know I do not believe), why let the rest of humanity come into existance just to be cast into a lake of fire? If all GOD really wanted was to have human beings that would choose HIM of their own free will, why let the rest of them exist? Do we need people in the world who will not choose GOD of their own free will? BECAUSE GOD IS PLANNING PARADISE FOR THE NEXT EARTH. If HE didn't want sin in the world this time around, it wouldn't be here. (and to be really blunt for a moment, you need to believe this or else you can not trust GOD to create the next earth with no sin either. Either HE always gets it right or maybe HE will, maybe HE won't)

4) Because GOD wants to show HIS righteous wrath and veangance on those who will reject HIM (Romans 9:22). They are going to show the holiness of GOD and HIS complete separation from sin. They are going to serve the same purpose Pharoah did. And not one of them wants to choose GOD and they never will want to choose GOD so they are never going to.

GOD created this world so that, at the final judgement seat, every aspect and facet of HIS being will be clearly showed to all of creation in it's absolute extreme perfection. HE will have saved many who deserve the lake of fire by HIS grace and mercy in choosing to change their nature and making them alive in CHRIST, and HIS extreme wrath and vengeance will be showed in HIS eternal pronouncement of unending torture and pain for those who rejected HIM. It has never been about us and our choosing and our faith, it has and always will be about GOD choosing to create something that will show all of who HE is to all of creation.

JESUS had to die to redeem a lost creation and to establish the perfect righteous judgement of GOD in commuting the sentence of death on some of HIS creation, while in perfect righteousness allowing others to get what they deserve. All for HIS purposes in accordance with HIS will.

And after all of that, we will be on a new earth with new heavens and a perfect paradise wil exist where all of HIS chosen people will glorify HIM an remember what HE did for them and wil never forget what HE did to the others. In this place there will be no tempter and no temptation. We will live in a place of perfect peace in the holiness of GOD and all of what you think GOD intended for this world will in fact be in that one.

I hope that answered your question.

HIS Peace and Love to you. Despite what you may think, you are a blessing to me and I enjoy the conversations.

[kross]

Amazing to me is the original Greek meaning for the word

[larryt]

Please I need an answer.

1)- Did God orchestrate the Fall?

2)- Why did the Fall have to take place? What purpose is it serving if there are the pre chosen?

3)- Why not just have Paradise on Earth with the pre-chosen folk?

4)- Those that are not chosen - what is the purpose of their existence? Or can they "choose" Jesus and then BECOME one of the "chosen"?

These are questions I have not had a definite answer to.

If you would like to try to understand election here is something to read.

Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, "How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered them, AI told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not! because ye are not my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice. And I know them, and they follow me . . . " (John 10:24-27).

And here are some questions that need to be answered.

First question: "Why did the first group refuse to believe the gospel?"

Second question: "Why did the second group hear and believe?"

The third question: "According to our Lord's words in verses twenty-six and twenty-seven, does hearing and believing make you a sheep, or do you hear and believe because you have already been chosen to be a sheep?"

Answers:

1. The Savior's words in verse twenty-six were unmistakably clear. "Ye believe not because ye are not my sheep." It was impossible to argue about the meaning of such a concise statement. Why did they not believe? Christ gave the answer, "Because you are not my sheep." In other words, if they had been his sheep, they would have heard and believed. The fact they would not believe, proved they were not sheep. Our Lord had earlier taught the same truth. In fact, his words in verse twenty-five, AI told you, and ye believed not . . ." probably refer back to the eighth chapter of John where Jesus said unto them, A. . . If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham . . . Ye do the deeds of your father . . . If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; . . . Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my words . . . you are of your father the Devil . . . " (John 8:39-44). These people not only did not believe, but Christ said they could not believe. Why? They were not "of the Father." They were not "Abraham's seed." They were, in other words, not one of God's elect. They were not one of his sheep. It does not mean that they wanted to believe but Christ would not allow them to do so. No, no, it means they were totally unable because of their depravity, and God had chosen to leave them in this state. You can see in both John 10:26 and 8:38-43 the same "if" and "would have" relationship. Who and what these people were determined what they did and did not do. Our teacher reminded us that we all, without exception, were born with that same nature and into that same state of sin and unbelief.

2. This question logically followed the first one and again the Savior's word gave a clear answer. Verse twenty-seven said, "My sheep hear my voice . . . " The teacher kept contrasting the two cards representing the two groups. "The gospel came to all of them, but one group believed and the other group would not. Why? What made the difference in the two groups? Why did the group called Amy sheep" hear and believe? Did they have better hearts? Stronger wills? Keener minds? No, they believed because they were sheep.

About this time the farmer turned the poster boards over. On the back of the "heard and believed" board was printed the word "sheep," and on the back of the "would not hear and believe" board was printed the word "goat." Now I had always known the Bible divided men up into sheep and goats. I also knew that the sheep were God's people and the goats were not. However, I never knew until that night why some people were sheep and others were not, and more specifically, that I had believed the gospel only because I had been chosen to be a sheep in eternity. It was always clear, as the cards showed, that "sheep" and "hear and believed" belonged together, and likewise that "goat" and "would not hear and believe" went together. However, no one had ever shown me which was the cause and which was the effect. I had thought, as my Arminian teachers had carefully taught me, that I had decided to change my goat nature into a sheep nature by an act of my "free will." Oh, how those who love free will would like to make John 10:26 say, "You are not my sheep because you are unwilling to believe, if you would be willing to believe you would become one of my sheep." Ah, my friend, the text clearly says the opposite. Jesus said, "You believe not because you are not my sheep!"

3. The farmer's third question opened up the whole truth of God's sovereign election and forever silenced the nonsense of free will as the decisive factor in my "hearing and believing." In an instant, God assured my heart of the answer. I knew which was the cause and which was the effect. The words of Christ were clear as crystal. The Spirit of God assured me that I had heard the Shepherd's voice only because I had previously been chosen to be one of his sheep. I had willingly come to Christ only because I belonged to Christ by his sovereign election and he was claiming, by his power, in time, what had been given to him in eternity. I was not a goat that had become a sheep by a "decision of my so-called free will," but rather, I was a lost sheep that had been found! And I had been found only because I was a chosen sheep from eternity. A "lost" sheep had become a "found" sheep. A goat had not become a sheep.

Christ did not become my Shepherd when he brought me to faith and repentance. He sought, found, and brought me to himself in salvation only because the Father, in eternity, had given me to him to be one of his sheep. That word "because" in verse 26 forever settled the reason some people reject the gospel. "My sheep hear" in verse 27 could only mean that I had heard and believed because I was a sheep from eternity. The texts can mean nothing else! Put down in your "Book of Indisputable Facts" these two things: (1) Only those who have been eternally chosen to be sheep will ever come to Christ, and (2) every one of the sheep, without a single exception, will come when Christ draws them.

My mind was flooded with this amazing truth. I was one of God's elect from eternity! Why had I heard and believed the gospel? I knew the answer. Only because I had been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. I was not redeemed because I had believed, but rather the One who had redeemed me before I was born had now found me and revealed himself to me. Christ had sought me because I was his property. I did not become his sheep when he found me, but he had sought me and found me because I was one of his lost sheep.

As I left that little church in Lancaster County, I looked up into the heavens with tears in my eyes. I knew that before a single star had ever shown a beam of light, God had sovereignly chosen me as a sheep and purposed to draw me to himself and give me faith. With a heart filled with amazement and praise, I gladly acknowledged that I owed every part of my salvation to God's grace in Sovereign Election. I knew I was in possession of eternal life only because the Father had chosen me, the Savior had died for me, and the Holy Spirit had given me faith and a new heart.

Taken from HERE

LT

[kross]

Paul preached the gospel against his will. Jonah preached to Ninevah against his will. Pharoah's heart was hardened by GOD violating his freewill. Romans 9:11-15 is all about GOD violating man's "freewill".

I would assume you mean that Paul, before his conversion, would've had nothing to do with the "way" that he set out to destroy and certainly couldn't have pictured himself a preacher of the Gospel without God's election process being somewhat, if not a lot, forced on him... yes?

I thought I'd throw the verses in below but I doubt you meant anything about his unwillingness to preach after his conversion.

16For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

17For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. [1 Cor 9:16-17]

Just wondering...

Actually, to me those verses say he preaches the word against his will. Necessity is laid upon me by who? Woe to me if I do not. In the KJV the last statement is "but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship" which to me is his point, he preachesagainst his will and thus is entrusted with a stewardship.Paul never believed he deserved a reward.

Huh... I too have always interpreted that there was definitely an "unction" or "burden" driving him to preach... as if it was almost forced on him but I thought the two main points to be seen here is that he always stays in a state of "not thinking more highly of himself than he ought" when he says that he had nothing to glory of because of the driving force behind his motivation. Secondly, It seemed important to him to make it clear to others that it was far better to be "willing" to preach than to do so begrudgingly!

Oh well...

I do not think he did it begrudgingly. I can tell you that necessity is laid upon me and I am not happy if i am not teaching and preaching. Still, he went through some stuff for the gospel that most today would call just dumb. His use of the phrase "against my will" speaks.