I have a question.

[kross]

[

color="#FF0000]No. Only God knows who is chosen and who is not. We are to assume that anybody we meet could be one of the chosen. We are to preach the gospel to all people.

If they are already chosen, then preaching is pointless. They WILL be saved even NO ONE preaches to them. According to people like you, God has obligated Himself to save certain people, and He cannot reverse that choice or lose one them. That means that preaching or no, they WILL be saved according to your "theology."

These are such wierd responses. They will be saved because GOD will send preacher who will testify to the glories of GOD. Even if many choose to not preach the word to the lost, GOD will raise up preachers.

So even though they are chosen before Creation - God NEEDS mans help to bring realisation of Salvation to the chosen?

What's the point of being chosen if they STILL need to hear the Gospel? See how it doesn't make sense?

Salvation to ALL, makes sense.

Pleae Girly girl,

GOD does not "NEED" us for anything. HE has determined that this is how HE would do things. Just because HE chooses to do things in this way, does not mean it is the only way HE could have. HE has made us a part and party to the calling out of HIS people because it pleased HIM to do so. An honor and priviledge that we have to bring HIM glory and honor. Why does there need to be any other reason to do so?

If GOD has chosen to save the world, why does HE need us to preach? For the same reason.

[larryt]

'larryt'

The Jews were furious at the thought that God would choose a gentile widow in the time of Elijah, or a gentile, Syrian, leper to heal in the time of Elisha.

Go and read the "good Samaritan" story....just read that story again....

The Jews didn't like that story either but that parable is not addressing election. The ones I mentioned above are.

The woman of Samaria now that is another matter. Why did Jesus "MUST NEEDS GO THROUGH SAMARIA?" He had sheep there that he needed to retrieve.

Those that fight the hardest to deny the doctrine of election are the enemies of the cross.

Are you happy with that sentence?

That's a big call larryt.

Happiness has nothing to do with it. The offense of the Gospel is that salvation is ALL OF GOD, start to finish, working out all the details that none of His sheep are lost. Man is offended because it is the nature of man to grasp for some glory to himself. "God chose me because I was somebody, I deserved heaven because I chose myself."

Everything is happening according to His plan. All His sheep will be saved. The means is the preaching of the Gospel.

LT

[Guest HIS girl]

='larryt'

Do you have children? You and your wife chose to have children. They didn't have any choice in the matter. They just found themselves born into the world. God begets His children and they are born again, not because they chose. They chose because God gave them life.

I know women who have had babies to love and cherish.

I don't know one woman who would choose to have a baby in order to kill it.

I repeat.

[Guest man]

They will be saved because GOD will send preacher who will testify to the glories of GOD. Even if many choose to not preach the word to the lost, GOD will raise up preachers.

If the chosen have already been chosen, why the need for preachers?

Because, as you well know, that is the way GOD decided to do it. If the truth is written on mens hearts for they will not be able to say "I did not know", if the truth of GOD can be seen in creation, then why do we preach? Because that is the way GOD has decided to save HIS people.

You claim the saved and the unsaved have already been chosen.

According to your doctrine, hearing the Gospel would have no effect on a person because they are saved or unsaved regardless if they hear it or not.

If a person's fate is determined before they are even born, it wouldn't matter how many preachers they listened too, because where they are going to spend eternity has already been decided.

[larryt]

You claim the saved and the unsaved have already been chosen.

Man it is very important to try to understand just what we are saying and not try to frame it in your own words. The SAVED are chosen OUT OF the whole of humanity that is condemned already. They are not chosen in a vacuum.

A good analogy: A man is convicted in court for murder and receives the death penalty. The Governor of the State looks at all the prisoners and decides to pardon one according to his own choosing. The man on death row has no hope and hasn't even asked for a pardon but the governor chooses him. He is pardoned and doesn't even have to do anything to go free. He is set free by the mercy and grace of the governor.

God looked down through time and saw people that He decided to save out of all that were under a death sentence and gave them life.

According to your doctrine, hearing the Gospel would have no effect on a person because they are saved or unsaved regardless if they hear it or not.

No one is saved until they believe(period). All are unsaved already because of Adam.

If a person's fate is determined before they are even born, it wouldn't matter how many preachers they listened too, because where they are going to spend eternity has already been decided.

Again no one is saved until they believe and they believe when they hear the gospel. Fate has nothing to do with it.

LT

[Guest shiloh357]

In one sense you are right that God will make sure that the chosen are saved. Jesus will not loose any that the Father gave to Him.

This does not in any way eliminate man's responsibility to call upon the name of the Lord. God determined that man would call when he hears the Gospel that is preached. It is preached by those that God sends.

As always, you miss the point.

The Bible presents preaching as an urgent matter. The salvation of millions are at stake, and they cannot get saved unless some brings the gospel to them. They cannot call on whom they have not heard, they cannot hear unless someone preaches. If they are alreay chosen, then it is as good as done. There is no urgency. If your "theology" is correct, then it doesn't really matter if they hear or not. Sure, the responsibility is there, but if I don't meet that responsibility, no one will be worse off for it. If they are not chosen, I can preach to them till I am blue in the face, and they will not be able to come to Christ, as according to you, God won't allow them to be saved.

What it says is that God chose us (Christians) to be holy and without blame. He made that choice before the foundation of the world. It does not say, "God chose us to become Christians." Paul is speaking to Christians about what God has chosen for them to be (holy and blameless). The choice pertains to God's agenda for the saved. It does pertain to who is or is not saved. You're letting your theology drive your interpretation.

You miss a word. He chose us before the foundation of the world THAT we should be holy....... God still chose!!!!!!

I didn't miss anything. I just know English grammar better than you. The grammatical structure links the choice with the outcome. The emphasis is what God chose for us, not who God chose. It does not say that God chose would or would not be saved. Being holy and blameless are not synonomous with "salvation." "Holy and blameless" denote a post salvation consdition/experience.

What Paul is saying is that before the foundation of the world, God already had not only the plan of how to save man established, but had also determined what salvation would accomplish in those who are saved. There is nothing in that verse in Ephesians about God choosing who will be saved. It refers to God choosing how salvation would be worked out in the lives of its recipients.

The issue between you and me is not whether or not God chooses. We both believe that God chooses. This is not also not a denial of us being God's elect. I believe in the doctrine of election, but I believe it the way the Bible presents it as it is pertaining to service, not salvation.

Election is not about who gets to be saved and who is left to an eternity in hell.

The term election pertains to rank and privilege. It is no different than when the same word or concept is spoken of concerning Israel. The Jews are God's chosen people, the Bible refers to them as "the elect." Those who have not received Christ are not saved but they are still referred to as God's elect, his chosen.

"Chosen" is not equal with "Saved." It never has been. "Chosen" or "Elect" are titles; they do not indicate who is or is not saved.

What we see when we look at election in the Old Testament is God setting aside what was first in order to establish the second. God chose Isaac, over Ishmael, He chose Jacob over Esau. Ishmael and Esau are pictures of the flesh, Isaac and Jacob are pictures of what pertains to the Spirit.

Election is about God setting aside what is of the flesh and man's carnality to establish what pertains to spirituality.

We also see that the old covenant sin offerings were set aside to establish the final sin offering of Christ. He sets aside all firsts and establishes all seconds.

That is what election pertains to. It is God setting aside our old man and establishing us as New Creations in Christ.

[Guest shiloh357]

A good analogy: A man is convicted in court for murder and receives the death penalty. The Governor of the State looks at all the prisoners and decides to pardon one according to his own choosing. The man on death row has no hope and hasn't even asked for a pardon but the governor chooses him. He is pardoned and doesn't even have to do anything to go free. He is set free by the mercy and grace of the governor.

That is nowwhere close to being analagous to how salvation works.

That is a lousy analogy.

[Guest HIS girl]

larry t,

You may as well have condemned me for being an enemy of God's. I am FAR from that. Just because I question the "pre-chosen" notion does not mean I am anti God. Please.

You know larry, every time you come up with an explaination to your belief, I come up with a question - and I KNOW how much you hate my questions....

Why did Jesus heal SOME and not OTHERS?

Please do not tell me the "SOME" were chosen and the "OTHERS" were destined for Hell.....

[Guest HIS girl]

'larryt'

No one is saved until they believe(period).

Ok larry, in that case - there is no foothold to your belief of "pre chosen" before Creation AND that means it is entirely up to mans freewill whether he believes and accepts the Gospel or not.

Then that brings us back to Salvation is for ALL men -

[larryt]

larry t,

You may as well have condemned me for being an enemy of God's. I am FAR from that. Just because I question the "pre-chosen" notion does not mean I am anti God. Please.

You know larry, every time you come up with an explaination to your belief, I come up with a question - and I KNOW how much you hate my questions....

Why did Jesus heal SOME and not OTHERS?

Please do not tell me the "SOME" were chosen and the "OTHERS" were destined for Hell.....

Why did Jesus heal some and not others? I says He healed ALL that came to Him and sought healing. I suspect there were those that didn't believe and didn't seek and don't want to be healed.

I once was prompted by God to go to a man in a wheel chair who was very obviously crippled. His legs would not support anybody. I was terrified by the thought of going and nothing happening. What the Spirit specifically said to me was: "Go and ask that man if he wants to be healed." What went through my mind was - Wow, God is going to heal someone and He is going to use me to do it. And that is why I struggled with the doubts. I jumped to conclusions that simple were not there. The Spirit did NOT say go heal that guy. He said go ask that guy if he wanted to be healed. At the time I was seeking God as to why we don't see more healing like the time of Jesus. After all Jesus said these signs that I do you shall do also and greater than these also.

I struggled with whether it was really God or not telling me to do it and I put down a fleece. This was in a big store and I did not know where the man was in the wheelchair so I said: "If the man is in the next aisle when I go around the corner then I will do what you told me Lord."

The man was in the next aisle. So I went up to him and asked him if he wanted to be healed.(I wasn't blunt about it and tried to strike up a conversation first, just shortening the story)

Guess what his answer was. "No, I don't want to be healed."

And I don't hate your questions.

Peace

LT