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I thought about adding a few comments to this thread, but it wouldn't be politically correct. However, if I felt I had more time, I would do it anyway, anyday: I would rather be RIGHT-------> than politically correct!

I'm glad to finally hear someone else besides me use that idea of "dimension". That's exactly how God's Word describes it, being behind a vail (see Isaiah 25).

Please don't be puzzled on that brethren. In Isaiah 14 God is mocking Satan and using his own words, what Satan has claimed. At Isaiah 14:4, God reveals He's speaking a 'proverb' against the king of Babylon. That means like a parable (I'll say more on that point later). Isa 14:12-14 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." (KJV) The underlined part above are Satan's own words. God is repeating what Satan has claimed he will do against Him. In the first edition 1611 KJV, the translators put "O Day Starre" in the margin as an alternate reading for "Lucifer". They got the name "Lucifer" from the Latin translation. The actual Hebrew word does indeed mean 'morning star'. I'm sure they used the name Lucifer to make sure the reader was not confused as to whom God was really pointing to there in that section of Isaiah 14. But Lucifer, i.e., Satan, is NOT The Morning Star. It's important to pick up the subject context God began that with starting at Isaiah 14:4. He's using the king of Babylon title as a symbolic title for Satan, just like He did in Ezekiel 28 with the titles of "prince of Tyrus" and "king of Tyrus". It's involving how Satan sinned against God in the beginning, and still wants to be God. If you understand Ezekiel 28 as a proverb with God doing the same kind of parable thing there with symbolically pointing to Satan as the "anointed cherub that covereth", and that God originally created him perfect in his ways before he rebelled, then it's the same matter here in this section of Isaiah 14. Satan coveted God's Throne for himself, wanting to be God, when it was Satan's original job to guard God's Throne. Since the title Morning Star is another title for our Lord Jesus Christ per Rev.22, we should well know Satan is not That Morning Star. But Satan wants to be, and there's the rub. In a similar fashion, God uses the same kind of title association in Deut.32:31... Deut 32:31 31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges. (KJV) Little case "rock" compared to upper case "Rock"; what's that mean? Satan is that little "rock", God is our "Rock". By that is meant like that Isaiah 14 Scripture, Satan WANTS to be God, and worshipped as God. That means as our Lord Jesus Christ too, for He is God The Son. Deeper: Why would our Heavenly Father say in Isaiah 14:4 to take up a proverb about the king of Babylon, and then use that in pointing to Satan? The king of Babylon during Jeremiah's day was Nebuchadnezzar, but clearly there in Isaiah 14 that's not who God was speaking about, even though ole' Neb did want to be God, and worshipped as God also. Use your thinking caps brethren, because isn't there still yet an end time Babylon to occur per our Lord's Book of Revelation? Yes. Revelation does not mention a king of Babylon, but it does point directly to a king, a beast king for the last days, and in association with a beast kingdom and a harlot city called... "Babylon" (Rev.17-18). If you've understand that, along with the isaiah 14 Scripture about the "king of Babylon" title applied to Satan by our Heavenly Father in that section of verses, then you ought to be able to fathom what Satan wants to also do for the very end of this world. Did any of Christ's Apostles point to this same idea in Isaiah 14 of Satan wanting to be God, and worshipped as God by the congregation? Well, take another look at what Apostle Paul covered in 2 Thessalonians 2 about the one coming to sit in the temple of God to proclaim himself as God, and over anything called God or that is worshiped, and in 2 Corinthians 11 about the "another Jesus".

Because I am... a bit 'salty', my character that is. I just used that nickname when coming here. I have other nicknames too, but I best not mention them here ( ). Blessings to you in Christ Jesus!

It may be a paraphrase just like several other translations that are happily accepted by general christian community but it still can have a place and usefulness. Certainly be hesitant to form doctrine based on what it says but it can open up difficult to understand passages. I could not disagree more. The Message is chalked full of new age terminology and is very misleading in many areas. Why even promote such garbage? I would never call any paraphrased book scripture, not would I suggest anyone to read them. Truth is truth and if anyone seeks the truth, point them to scripture.

Thank you for that very nice word of encouragement Kwik. It is a joy to speak about our Lord for He is the true joy of our lives, and really the source of joy and life itself. It's also a wonderful thing to see so many people here who truly love the Lord and have such a great desire to follow Him. We can also visualize the very face of the Lord in the many hearts He has moved by His Spirit, which is transforming us all by His love. I can readily see that the Holy Spirit of God is moving in your heart as well Kwik; and I give thanks to the Father for your walk in Christ and your outreach to others. God truly has provided us with many family members and, as His Day draws nearer, we are all made stronger in our faith by this. Praise be to our King, Christ Jesus, by whom all the saints shall one day, at His feet, lay their crowns in true recognition that it was by His great love for us and in us that He has moved our minds, heart, hands, feet, and mouth to labor in the glory of God's very work within us. The love of God will always be the prime motivator in the Christian heart. We have discovered the treasure of our live in Christ and where your treasure is there will be your heart also. While He lends us breath there is no better enterprise than to seek the riches of God's love; for it truly is His love that makes us strong in truth, word and deed. While we seek it daily it is an unending tap, for streams of living waters flow into us, through us and from us. The depths of God's love are unending and unfathomable and the deeper we go the more we love Him and appreciate that mystery! May God richly bless your day my sister!In the love of Christ, Pat Have a blessed day in Christ

Blessings Everyione Years ago I made myself crazy with Revelation & other one reminded me of the time I did research on the cities that claimed to be "the city built on 7 hills",,,,This is not the list from my studies (it is actually quite a lot longer).....this is from Wikipedia......I just think it is something else......LOL With love -in Christ,Kwik BTW,Spock.......thank you,,,,,,feelings are mutual,you are too kind Glory to God!

Shiloh, I do not want to be rude here, but the verses I pasted speak for themselves. I can see NYC written all over them. I'm not saying it is NYC, but for now, I'm open to that interpretation. Babylon isn't even close to a large body of water (sea), and this can't mean a river. "Was there ever a city as great as this?" Does not in any way sound like literal rebuilt Babylon on a sea. Anyhow, what is obvious to me may not be obvious to you. Fair enough, but don't forget, even you agreed, much (or some) of Revelation is symbolic, not to be take literal. This is one of them (to me).

I enjoyed talking with you and more importantly, I enjoyed your LOVE so I'm glad you had that misunderstanding. Love back at you, Spock out

Thank you Pat

The enemy would not want you to return to our Lord! So seek God & pray..............God bless you! With love-in Christ,Kwik Good answer! Yes God does give us confirmation but as kwikphilly stated it will always be backed up by Scripture. Somjetimes you may feel way out of your comfort zone but trust in the Lord and pray through it. If it is from the Lord it will glorify the Lord and we get to share in the Lord's work - which is so awesome!! May the Lord Bless, Pat

Yes, Amen my sister in Christ! May the Lord Bless, Pat

And I will continue to say"In Jesus Name",,,,"God Bless you"....."Merry Christmas"......."Happy Resurrection Day".......AMEN!?! Love,Kwik

I guess I will have to quote Matt 24: 22, 24 - Therefore keep watch, because we know the exact day our Lord will come. So no need to be ready, because the Son of Man will come in an hour when you do expect him. Mid-Trib Rapture, Pre-Wrath, but espically the Post - Trib position. Eat your heart out. BTW, what do I to Repent from, not believing your un-encouraging position. Please encourage each other with the scorching heat, the famines and no food, with 1/3 of the earth being burned up; Encourage each other with 1/3 of the sea turning to blood, with springs of water turning bitter, that a 1/3 of the moon, stars and sun being struck (turning dark). Encourage each other by the army from the East killing 1/3 of mankind. Praise God for all this encouragement. In Christ Montana Marv

I too agree that political correctness can get way out of hand. If we're not careful the Church no longer will legally be able to exegete the meaning of Scripture because it might be perceived as offensive to someone. Yet it is the power of the Holy Spirit which Jesus gave to the Church, that we might courageously speak despite threats, despite hardships and despite persecutions. Now many Churches who proclaim themselves as Christian cower inside their four walls because they are afraid of the idols of political correctness. Many also refuse to identify sin any more, or worse, they actually embrace sin in the name of "tolerance" and "political correctness." Their desire is to please men rather than God and they have made a false god out of men's opinions. We have even seen some churches not only deny sins that obviously fly in the face of Biblical teaching but actually through their never ending permissiveness and social decadence embrace sins of all types, while saying they are following Christ! I know this is not a popular message as churches in America already are buckling under a steady stream of political correctness because they fear the criticism of man rather than the truth and correction of God. It isn't popular now and it wasn't back in the days of Tacitus either. Tacitis was the Roman historian who preserved the history of Nero for us; Nero being the tyrant who had both Peter and Paul executed. Tacitus hated Christians for the message they preached and had this to say about them in his report, which has survived the ages. My humble opinion is these Christian of AD64-67 were testifying about sin & the coming judgment of God’s, which is why they were falsely accused of "the hatred of men". Tacitus interpreted warning their contemporaries, who were about to die in their sins as hatred for them but nothing can be further from the truth. This was not a act of hate but an act of love and obedience to Christ who said that when we are truly following the lead of God's Spirit His words will convict the world of sin, speaking righteousness and judgment.Their desire was that they might bring the lost to the truth of the Gospel in order that they might grope for God and repent before it was too late! They felt the urgency to save as Paul did when h addressed the Athenians and spoke of sin, repentance, judgment and righteousness just as the Lord said we would if truly moved by the Holy Spirit. Today we have Churches and organizations who quench the Holy Spirit by repressing God's Holy word and commandment. In this world these so called leaders may be respected by men but do they hear what Jesus has to say about repressing the truth? If we are not about our Father's business then what exactly is the Church doing? The Church and those led by the Spirit are clearly supposed to be identifying sin, speaking against it, as well as preaching repentance and the offer of God's grace through the Gospel. I am not defining that is what is supposed to happen - the Lord Jesus told us this is supposed to be what happens once the Spirit starts leading individuals as well as collectively by the presence of His Church Body throughout the world, until the Gospel is preached to all tongues, tribes and nations. Peter and Paul did and they lost their lives. The Christians of Rome did and they too became Nero's torches as he poured oil upon them and lit them afire to light the roads. They were despised and rejected but they weren't afraid to carry their cross and teach and speak the truth in front of those who railed against them. Their mission was that some of their contemporaries might be saved to the true life yet to come; when the dead in Christ shall rise and be changed to His likeness in the very blink of an eye or be judged for rejecting the offer of God's greatest gift; His Son, our Savior who shed His blood for all and paid our sin debt. How can we say we love others if we stand idly by and let them die in their sins because we are afraid to speak God Word in truth? Has tolerance become neglecting the lost and letting them die in their sins. Isn't love what Christ did sacrificing all for sinners like us who did not deserve his love but He willing to pay the price for us giving His all to save even the wretched? The world honors a soldier who gave his all but this world will never honor Christ - it is up to us to honor Him and live and walk in the Spirit of sacrifice and love by speaking the truth and caring enough about those who do not understand the gravity of sin and judgment nor the love and mercy in the cross of Christ. May God Bless, Pat

Thank you dear family of God for sharing and encouraging me and praying for me.

I think the same as Kwik.

as far as waiting, Ive been waiting my entire life. Ive never particularly felt "called" to do anything. This used to bother me-but a preacher one time, preached this awesome message-and taught me this important concept. Its called "actively waiting" It means instead of sitting there twiddling your thumbs while your waiting on God-go out and do something. Be mindful and in constant prayer for Gods call-but in the meantime, find something to do in His name. Ive been doing this for quite awhile, and quite honestly I think it sort of is my calling. No matter where I am-be it church work or whatever, Ive always been one of those jack of all trades-I fill in the gaps basically, when theres a need and not enough people to do it, I come in and fill it. Ive come to peace with perhaps thats exactly what God wants of me-he wants me to fill in the gaps.

Shiloh, Actually, I've been mulling over the possibility that Rev 18 is talking about New York City. I will only show the parts that I believe allude to it from Rev 18: The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.” In her heart she boasts, ‘I sit enthroned as queen. 9“When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her. 10Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry: “ ‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, you mighty city of Babylon! In one hour your doom has come!’ 11“The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes anymore— 12cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and human beings sold as slaves. 14“They will say, ‘The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your luxury and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.’ 15The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn 16and cry out: “ ‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls! 17In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’ “Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. 18When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, ‘Was there ever a city like this great city?’ 19They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out: “ ‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, where all who had ships on the sea became rich through her wealth! In one hour she has been brought to ruin!’ 21Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said: No worker of any trade will ever be found in you again. The sound of a millstone will never be heard in you again. 23The light of a lamp will never shine in you again. The voice of bridegroom and bride will never be heard in you again. Your merchants were the world’s important people. By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.

I have never heard of such a thing. The Holy Spirit is our helper. He is our guide and our comforter. We have the Scriptures as our guide as well. We are told to seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and He will supply our needs. No I don't think a "destiny helper" is scriptural. A helpmate, a wife is scriptural. Perhaps that is what they are referring to. If not, let it go.

from my own understanding,the voice is very easy to understand, based on your walking relationship with God, come back to me, may be there are something good that you have been doing before, that you are no longer doing, and those things please God, and now you are asking God to do something for you, sometimes God use our situation to draw us near to Him, you alone knows yourself and what you are asking from God, it is the will of God for us to draw near to Him, He doesn't want us to go astray, He want us to follow the right way and forsake the wrong way, every good and perfect voice comes from God, it is alwaya good to seek for counselling and confirmation, from those people that are more knowledgeable than us, concerning the things of God, God promise to give us pastors according to His own heart,that will feed us with knowledge and understanding, Jeremiah 3:15" Let me share this story with you, there was time i was seeking the face of God for a particular something, one faithful night i encounter a dream, were somebody gave me white envolope, i was very happy when i received the envolope, but when i open it, what i saw surprised me, boldly written,Revelation 2:4-7" Immediately i woke up, i open my bible,after reading from vers 4-7" in fact i was confused, i was asking myself what exactly God was trying to tell me,this passage did not relate with what i was asking God to do for me, out of confusion i posted the dream here, Through the replies and by the grace of God,I was able remembered something very good and of help to someone that i have been doing before, that i was no longer doing,because of my situation at that moment and i never knew that, what i was doing was pleasing God, and He want me to keep on doing it, it was after i started doing it again, that God answered my prayer, in a platter of gold,

The word of God is not progressive and alterable to the fashions of man. God's word DOES NOT CHANGE.

Has the reader ever considered that the rapture tale is just that - a fantasy? No matter how the fans of the tale twist and misquote scripture to justify this aberration of Christian mythology, there are always ALWAYS logical errors in the theory. The reason is that the whole bundle of rubbish is illogical, filled with pot holes that even scripture taken out of context cannot fill. The whole thing was concocted by John Nelson Darby in the mid-19th century TO SELL BOOKS, specifically his rant about dispensationalism. Rapturism has absolutely nothing at all to do with encouraging the body of Christ, hope in the resurrection of the dead or even as an affirmation of the second coming of Jesus Christ. Did you catch that last part? The rapture has absolutely nothing to do with the affirmation of the second coming of Jesus Christ. In point of fact it CONFUSES the issue considerably. Where does confusion come from? Three guesses it isn't the gospel of Jesus Christ. Another gospel, perhaps? Scripture forbids it, BTW. Those that hold with the rapture myth fall into several camps. In its simplest form the rapture involves Christ returning to earth at least twice. In its more complex and deviated forms its got Jesus holding a picnic in the clouds somewhere while the world goes to hell in a hand basket - only to turn around and come back a third or forth time to judge those that weren't part of the party when the dinner bell was first rung. If this isn't the epitome of absurdity, then I don't know what is. In point of fact, the secular world considers this idiotic theme a reason for mockery of that which is otherwise the most logical and cerebral religion on the planet. The rapture myth was born out of a desire for profit, not prophet and has flourished as most of the designs of the enemy often do - to obfuscate the gospel. Do yourself a favor, pilgrim - drop the rapture myth into the garbage bin of religious mumbo jumbo and the idiocies of the past where it belongs. Stand up with courage, and stop believing in the coward's gospel that God will come and take us out of the trouble He has promised multiple times to see us THROUGH. Where's your faith? If you believe the rapture, you have none, because you've allowed a stupid story to usurp your hope.....in Christ's sufficiency FOR TODAY and FOR ALL TIME. The coward seeks a way of escape. The faithful seek God's will be done, even if it means personal suffering. Which is it, pilgrim? You can't have it both ways, you know. and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft....

Blessings other one..... I just wanted to say that I am so happy in reading your comment,I cannot tell you how deeply I am grateful to God for having given me the privilege to be used by Him going through my cancer ordeal,,,,,other one,I believe He trusted me with the assignment & because of Him.....I pleased Him & I do give Him all the Glory It is my privilege & my honor,not man people can understand that .................... With love-in Christ,Kwik

google three city states and it will give you a quick overview...... from there one has to branch out to several areas to get to the details. Rome itself is basically the same as the Greek beliefs in old gods which was just a continuation of Egyptian gods with different names. It's a bit more difficult to make the jump to old Sumer, but if you look at the history timing and outcomes, Gilgamesh, Osiris and Apollo are basically the same entity. The architecture of Washington shows the people who made the decisions of what our capitol would look like picked those representing this entity. Not many people know of it but during the swearing in of all of our presidents, the 33rd degree masons hold a ritual raising Osiris to enter our president and guide him/her in fulfilling the office of president. We use Roman law and have Roman religious symbols representing the capitol complex. It's symbols are on our money and our money is controlled by 13 families that run the City of London and control the Federal Reserve. We even have a huge fresco in the dome of the capitol that shows George Washington being deified in to his place with the Gods...... and none of those gods are the Father. So Oakwood, I would just say that I don't think it's out of Ignorance that these old Roman symbols are used for these things... One has to understand that Europa was the daughter of the King of Tyre, and she had children by Zeus himself who is a fallen angel... So as you might tell, I don't consider mythology to be the figment of someones imagination, but embellished preflood stories of the gods mingling with humans just as Genesis chapter six and ever other civilization with recorded history tells us. edited to add.... and those old gods were actually fallen angels.

Just a still small voice saying "come back to me" but I am not sure what I need to do.

Yes, the "asleep" saints are already in Heaven with Jesus. And yes He brings them with Him when He returns, as per the 1 Thess.4 Scripture. That's one group of saints. The other group of saints are still alive and remain on earth, but at the moment of His return He gathers them 'with'... the 'asleep' saints WHILE He is DESCENDING TO JERUSALEM. We who are still alive and remain on earth do NOT go to Heaven, He and His 'asleep' saints are coming here. His coming is on earth to Jerusalem, not back to Heaven. The many mansions of John 14 mean 'abodes'. Those are the abodes of the priests involving the Ezekiel temple of Ezekiel 40 forward, a temple that Christ will bring to earth for His future "thousand years" reign, on earth, reigning with His elect priests (Rev.5:10). The context in John 14 when He said that to His disciples of course means in the Apostle's days those abodes were not yet established on earth, but being prepared in Heaven for the day of Christ's reign as KING of kings and LORD of Lords, i.e., the Millennium "thousand years" of Rev.20. When Jesus returns, those "mansions" (or residences per Greek mone) will be on earth as per the Ezekiel Scripture, along with God's River of the waters of life, and the Tree of Life, all in the New Jerusalem on earth (Ezek.47). In relation to Christ's second coming, the wedding parable of Matt.22, those are bid to the wedding, they are not the bride. They are guests of the Bridegroom and wedding feast. Jerusalem is the Bride per Rev.21:9-10. See also Ezekiel 16 where our Heavenly Father made that association with Jerusalem as His wife. It is also iterated in Isaiah 54. Apostle Paul made no distinction between the believing seed of Israel and believing Gentiles. Both are 'one' in Christ Jesus. With the Matt.24 and Mark 13 examples, Jesus was speaking to His elect disciples while on the Mount of Olives, and... to the elect of the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, i.e., His whole CHURCH. It's men's doctrines that wrongly try to divide the two, and in the Pre-trib Rapture school's case they do that dividing just so they can push their idea of a rapture prior to the tribulation. In Matt.24 and Mark 13, Jesus covered the signs of the Seals of Rev.6. The very last sign He covered was His second coming and gathering of His saints. With the Matt.24:31 example, that gathering is about the saints in Heaven being gathered for Christ's coming. Those elect are the 'asleep" saints of 1 Thess.4, gathering from one end of Heaven to the other. Matt.24:31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (KJV) In the Mark 13:27 version, He gathers the saints (His Church) that is still alive which remain on earth..."from the uttermost part of the earth". That Scripture aligns with the other part of 1 Thess.4 that Paul said the other group of saints will still be alive and remain on earth until Christ's second coming. Mark 13:27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. In BOTH of those Scripture examples, a DIRECT statement of timing... is given by our Lord Jesus when that gathering and His coming will occur... Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Several states have. Our last governor made it legal in Washington State by gubenatorial decree, much like our president did with his heathcare. Executives are not allowed to sign measures into law that are not passed by the house and senate, but they are doing it. The people in WA voted against same sex marriage several times. But this was ignored. The constitution is largely being ignored.

If this tread turns any more into Catholic bashing, it will be closed. You are welcome to discuss their beliefs, but do so respectfully. This site is a non-denominational site and we do have brothers and sisters in every church that follows Christ, no matter what they call themselves.

Beloved There Is No Doubt I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. Revelation 22:16 His Angels Still Speak And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:17 No Doubt And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mark 16:15