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Shiloh, I agree that we cannot apply every single scripture to ourselves literally, but matters of the Church are pretty much Universal. I mean we still have the exact same challenges the Church in Corinth had and even in some cases much worse. This is not one of those issues where it is simply a Spiritual application. We are one body, and the Church throughout History is one unit in Christ, Baptized into one body by the Spirit. We still have modern day Judaisers, we still have promiscuity in the Church, we still have sectarianism, and divisions...etc. Those words are more relevant today than ever. Honestly, I respect you and Marilyn greatly, but I think you guys are wrong on this matter. I also think it is splitting hairs as we all know we are not actually brides individually. Scripture does however liken us to an Espoused virgin to her husband, and we are clearly invited to some sort of wedding feast.

If that be the case, how can we today read any of the epistles and gain comfort from the truths and promises in them? I fully understand that Paul was writing directly to a literal Church congregation, but the Holy Spirit gives meaning to the entire Church. This is like saying when Paul wrote to the Galatians to not be brought under the yoke of legalism, that he was ONLY talking to them, therefore we cannot rely on those truths as well since the letter was written years and years ago to a literal congregation. These Letters are to be read by ALL the Churches, not just the Church they were originally written for. 2Pe 3:14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 2Pe 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 2Pe 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction Col 4:16 After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea. Rom 15:4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope.

If a person thinks they are something when they are nothing then they fool themselves. That said one of three issues we have is the pride of life. Everyone wants to be someone. Even Pharoah was raised up because God had a purpose for him. My estimation of self or self-esteem is on target when I admit that without God I am nothing. Without Christ I can do nothing. Self-esteem is vanity.

The same U-Pb dating method is the same technique that Seva Harris used when he did his essay to support the hypothesis of a Young Earth..........this method is what they use to find relative presence of parent isotopes of uranium & their daughter species of lea to determine the age of crystallisation of certain minerals.Two separate decay schemes to determine ages of crystallisation of minerals ranging from about 10 million years, up to and beyond the age of the earth at 4.55 billion years (imo,that is a bit broad-lol) Anyway,if one can supposedly show the determination of a young earth & the other can show a very old earth by using the same technique,well-need I say more?But this thread is about the human body & proof ,regardless of whether the earth is young or old,no matter how long they try to make it seem the evolutionary process took to result in what we humans are....it doesn't work,,,,,,, To God be the Glory,our Wonderful Creator!!!! With love in Christ,Kwik

by George Whitten, Editor of Worthy Devotions Matthew 7:24-25 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. After spending three months on the road, with an incredible wife and two kids — it's great to be home! As you can imagine, living out of a suitcase with an 11-year-old daughter and a 7-year-old son, it was quite a trip as we traveled and spoke through 37 States and drove over 34,000 miles! As we spoke in numerous places throughout the United States, we stressed the need for our spiritual foundation to be solidified, and of how important it is right now for believers to be grounded on the rock that doesn't move! We are entering ever so quickly into some of the most turbulent times in the history of the world, and sad to say, it seems much of the church is asleep in the light without a clue of what's ahead and how rapidly it is approaching. While we see these events moving toward us on the horizon, we need more than ever to guard against worry or fear. Rather, let's embrace our God, who has promised to protect His children in the very midst of storms! In my own personal life, I have often experienced God's faithfulness and protection most dramatically in the midst of great storms. Not only that, but when you think of it, how can a rainbow be formed without a cloud or a storm? Now is the time to dig deep, and be firmly planted on the Rock — so that when the approaching storms do come, we will weather them through, and be there to rejoice as we see the fulfillment of God's promises at the end of the storm! View the full article Note: While this is 'locked' for comments, commments can be made on the article page by clicking the full article link.

I think the best--healthiest--sort of self-esteem would be having such a security in our identity in Christ that we could forget about ourselves and just focus on other people. Insecurity tends to focus our eyes inward. And you're right, Wingnut. Satan loves to whisper lies into our ears and make us squirm over mistakes that have already been forgiven. Don't let him win.

Hi gdemoss, I quite understand what you are saying, however we need to balance that position with God`s word, `speaking the truth in love we are to grow up...` (Eph. 4: ) It oftens depends upon our primary gifting as whether we focus on the love (pastoral types) or the truth (teacher types), but God say we need both. So really it is a matter of maturity in Christ & waiting for the Holy Spirit to bring that particular truth to light across the Body as He has done over the past two centuries. Blessings, Marilyn.

I understand where your coming from, but on the other note perhaps let's understand the ministries side of it. Chances are the people keeping the bags are volunteers-or if their paid they're not paid a lot. A lot of ministries run on a tight budget, and as you said they get several scammers a year, if there was no police report-and especially if the heads of the ministry aren't there they would have a hard time differentiating between a legitimate claim and someone conning them. The other part of it o don't know exactly what the ministry was persay-but like I said I'm guessing they use a lot of volunteers and the baggage storage is offered as a courtesy. In reality, the fault isn't even there's its those con men that did it. They can't stop criminals. While if I was in charge of the ministry I would try to compensate you for your loss, but I don't think they should be held liable for actions others did. Here's the real questions you need to ask. Is this an effective ministry? Is this an isolated insident? Would pursing this course of action hurt the ministry to the point that it may not be able to help others? If its a good ministry that is helping others and its an isolated incident I would let it be and accept that everyone including Christians are perfect. But if its not isolated-if its something that happens regularly to lots of people then I would find the other victims and confront the ministry in strength.

There is such a thing as personification, and we find it in Scripture also. It would be incongruous if heavenly gold and jewels (just like earthly bricks and mortar) would constitute the bride of Christ. They have neither soul nor spirit. Therefore when the New Jerusalem is called "the bride of Christ" it represents those who have their mansions and their eternal inheritance in that city, i.e. the saints themselves. Once again, we need to go back to Rev 19:7-9 and consider the Wife of the Lamb as further revealed in Rev 21:2-4, 9,10 -- COME HITHER, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE.

Beloved, Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Revelation 3:12 IMO The Highest Esteem Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 (NASB) Is The Love Of God And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. Deuteronomy 6:5 IMO As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. Psalms 42:1

Shiloh also quoted: So which one of these two quoted beliefs of yours Shiloh do you want me to believe? Did you change from one to the other???

Sorry, all those Scriptures are indeed related, but one must see them as related. The bottom line is the identity of the Wife of the Lamb, and it is crystal clear that all the saints in Heaven are indeed that Wife. Every bride ultimately becomes a wife and that is true for the Church in the New Jerusalem (Rev 19:7-9). As to the references to God's betrothal to Israel on earth, that can be true simultaneously since we are dealing with spiritual realities pertaining to God and His relationships. Israel, as Scofield points out, was "the adulterous and repudiated 'wife' of Jehovah, yet to be restored BUT IDENTIFIED WITH THE EARTH". Please note the references to the earth in Hosea 2:19-23, all addressed to Israel: 19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. 20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD. 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth; 22 And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. 23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God. Israel will indeed be redeemed and restored on earth in accordance with the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants, and God will indeed dwell in their midst. But the Church will be eternally in the New Jerusalem as the Wife of the Lamb.

If I bear witness of myself (self-esteem) my witness isn't true. Therefore I do not judge (self-esteem) myself for one judges (esteems) me. The self-delusion that I can make an accurate self-appraisal is what kept me down too low or up too high. It is not my place to estimate myself. It is my job to die to myself and live unto God. I esteem myself worthy of death and Christ worthy of life through me. To esteem myself anything is to be being foolish. That said, I am something but only because God said so. I trust his word. I have received Christ as king so I have the power to become one of the sons of God. I am whatever God says I am. God called Jesus the Christ the King of Kings and Lord of Lords therefore he is. And Jesus said that we should always presume to take the lowest seat (Esteem ourselves low). My exerience is that I have rarely ever been left in the low place. Something usually happens and I find myself being given honor and moved up. You can esteem yourself if you want but beware the price of over estimation.

The Church is apart of the Heavenly Jerusalem. To deny that scripture uses terminology equating the Church as Christ's or the Lamb's bride is almost like burying our heads in the sand, Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, Heb 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, I'm a dispensationalist , but I think we must be careful in rightly dividing God's word, we don't go over board in compartmentalizing the truth. Christ has brought all things together in him, making one new man out of Jew and Gentile alike. No, we are Gentiles are not spiritual Jews, and Jews cannot boast against us as if we are inferior to them in any way. We are all fellow heirs in Christ, and are all saved because of him. I do not believe the Church has replaced Israel as Jehovah's bride. She is called a "backslidden bride", one who needs restoration. One who will be reestablished and restored. The bride of Christ or the Church(the mystery that is not revealed in the Old Testament) is said to be a chaste virgin who is espoused to Christ. Which to me, would coincide with the future "Marriage supper of the Lamb". Isreal Isa 54:5 "For your husband is your Maker, Whose name is the LORD of hosts; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel, Who is called the God of all the earth. Isa 54:6 "For the LORD has called you, Like a wife forsaken and grieved in spirit, Even like a wife of one's youth when she is rejected," Says your God. Isa 54:7 "For a brief moment I forsook you, But with great compassion I will gather you. The Church 2Co 11:2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. The marriage terminolgy is there, as we are Joined to Christ, and are one Spirit with him. My question is still, how is this not really reaching to deny that scripture compares earthly marriage to the relationship of Christ and his Church? What are the dangers for someone like me, who is not antisemitic, who also does not deny that God has not replaced Israel with the Church? These are sincere questions, as this thread did get me to thinking, but it seems there is more scripture for the Church being Christ's bride(figuratively and as a whole unit) than not being his bride.

So in other words whenever I say He is my King I am wrong. Because Jesus is not King of all but just King of the Jews (Israel) and not Gentiles (non Jews).

Wonders............................all to the Glory of God,no wonder!!!!!!!! With Love-in Christ,Kwik

I think it goes back to the Jewish Wedding customs Question: "Are there parallels between Jewish wedding traditions and our relationship to Christ?" Answer:Jewish wedding traditions at the time of Christ are a fascinating study topic, and certain parallels can be seen between those customs and Christian theology. In the Bible, the Church is sometimes metaphorically understood to be Jesus’Bride(Revelation 21:2,9–10;19:7;22:17). TheMishnah Kiddushin(the section of theTalmuddealing with “dedication” or betrothal) specifies that a bride is acquired by a groom in one of three ways; one involves the groom leaving his father’s home and traveling to the bride’s home to “purchase” her for a price. The groom gives a token or adowry, and its value must be known to the bride. In all cases, the wife can only be acquired with her consent. The marriage contract, orketubah, is then established, and from that moment on the bride is sanctified, or set apart, exclusively for her bridegroom. It is customary for the groom and bride to drink from a cup of wine over which a betrothal benediction has been said. This prenuptial process can be seen as symbolic of Christ’s work on our behalf. Jesus left the home of His Father (heaven) and traveled to the home of His prospective Bride (earth) to purchase her for a price; that is, His own blood (1 Corinthians 7:23). His Bride has joyously consented to the match. He has given her a priceless token, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:6–16). With the establishing of theketubah(theNew Covenant), Jesus’ Bride was sanctified for Him (1 Corinthians 6:11). The communion wine is symbolic of the covenant by which Christ obtained His Bride. TheShulkhan Arukh, an exhaustive presentation of the details of Jewish law, elaborates regarding the two stages of marriage: thebetrothal(kiddushin, meaning “sanctified”) and the consummation of the marriage (nisuin, translated “elevation”).Kiddushinis not engagement as we understand it. It is a binding agreement in which the woman is legally considered the wife of the man. It was routine in Jesus’ day forkiddushinandnisuinto be separated by as much as a year. During that time the bridegroom would construct the marital home. This, too, can be viewed as a metaphor for spiritual truth. After sealing the covenant with the Church, Jesus ascended to His Father’s home to prepare a dwelling place. Just prior to His death, Jesus told His disciples, “My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am” (John 14:2–3). According to Jewish marriage law, when the time came fornisuin, the groom would return for his bride, accompanied by male escorts. The exact time of his arrival was not usually known in advance (seeMatthew 25:1–15). The groom’s arrival was announced with a shout. The Church’s Bridegroom has been separated from His Bride now for nearly 2,000 years, and one day He will come for her and snatch her from the earth to meet Him in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). We don’t know when exactly this will happen; we must be ready and remain faithful (Mark 13:33). Jesus will be accompanied by an angelic escort, preceded by a shout, when He returns for the Church (1 Thessalonians 4:16). After being whisked from her home, the Jewish bride remained hidden at the groom’s father’s house for seven days. Similarly, the Church will remain “hidden” for a period of seven years, during the prophesied Tribulation period. After the seven days, the Jewish bride left the bridal chamber unveiled; likewise, after seven years the Church will return to earth with Christ, in full view of all (Colossians 3:4). Viewed as an analogy, Jewish wedding customs have great significance for both believers and unbelievers. If you are a believer, you must remember your devotion to your Bridegroom so as not to commit spiritual adultery against Him (seeJames 4:4). The apostle Paul says to the Church, “I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.” He then warns us not to allow our minds to be “led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ” (2 Corinthians 11:2–3). If you are an unbeliever, now is the time to reevaluate your belief system in light of Jesus’ words and the prophecies of Revelation. Don’t beleft behindin the Rapture. Jesus offers eternal life to all who repent and believe. Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/Jewish-wedding-traditions.html#ixzz3ViZTgHdd

But the word Trinity also is not mentioned in the Bible as such.

I always think you do a wonderful job of teaching shiloh and you are doing a great job here but I do think Ephesians 5:23 is clearly equated with the body of Christ.

The US has been or is currently participating in more than a dozen wars and shadow wars in the middle east all of which in partnership with the GCC. This is nothing more than business as usual. I fail to understand how this is supposed to be some sort of shocking revelation. and that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

Ephesians 5:32 - This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

I agree with both Ezra and Floating Axe concerning the bride of Christ which is a mystery revealed to the Church.

Actually there is very explicit Scripture that reveals that the Church is presently the Bride-Wife espoused to Christ and will eventually become the Wife of the Lamb. (Keeping in mind that while this is Bible imagery, it is also a very true representation of the eternal intimate union and communion of Christ and His redeemed ones -- His sheep). The "Israel of God" as applied to the Church is Jew and Gentile in one Body (also represented in Romans 11:13-24 as "the good olive tree"), which is not only the Body of Christ, but also the Building of Christ and the Bride of Christ. If we fail to see all these are integral to the Church, we will not really understand who the Bride is (we can leave the other two aspects out of this discussion). BELIEVERS ARE ALREADY MARRIED TO CHRIST (2 Cor 11:2; Rom 7:4) For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. Just as for the people of Israel, espousal or betrothal meant that marriage is an accomplished fact, so it is for Christ and the Church. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. This needs little further comment. It is addressed to those who are called "saints" (Rom 1:7), who -- in God's sight -- are already married to Christ! (an accomplished fact or a fait accompli). This is actually an amazing revelation. The saints in Rome were primarily Gentiles, so that immediately shoots down the theory that the Bride is Israel. Christ cannot be married to two Brides. THE CHURCH IS EXPLICITLY THE WIFE OF CHRIST (Eph 5:23-33) 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband. Working backwards through this passage, we find: 1. The union of Christ and His Church is a "great mystery" -- incomprehensible to mere mortals. 2. Every believer is a member of His Body, which is the Church. 3. Christ will present the entire Church to Himself as (a) glorious, (b) spotless, ©without blemish, and (d) holy -- a perfect Wife for a perfect Husband. [This will be accomplished at the Rapture (1 Jn 3:1-3).] 4. The union of Christ and the Church is a marriage union, hence applicable to Christian husbands and wives. 5. Christ loved THE CHURCH (does not say "Israel") and gave Himself for it, because He is the Saviour of the Body. 6. As Christ is Head of the Church (making the Church subject to Him), so are Christian husbands the heads of their wives, having received authority from God. 7. Once again the marriage union of Christ and His Church is a fait accompli. UNTIL THE MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB CHRIST IS THE BRIDGEGROOM He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. (Jn 3:29). (A clear reference to Christ) And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast. But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days. (Mk 2:19,20). (A clear reference to Christ until the Marriage of the Lamb). THE CHURCH IN THE NEW JERUSALEM IS THE BRIDE And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband... And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife (Rev 21:2,9). THE BRIDE WILL BECOME THE LAMB'S WIFE FOR ETERNITY Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Rev 19:7,8). THERE WILL BE A MARRIAGE SUPPER IN HEAVEN And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. (Rev 19:9). As for Israel, God has another plan for Israel on earth and for eternity.