JCISGD

Many fundamentalists perhaps? will say Lord Lord, but Christ will say i never knew you. Most all christians i know believe the bible is the inerrant word of God, yet the differences of belief and obedience are as variable as the individual.

Alot of so called converts never had the fear of the Lord to begin with as there is a false gospel being preached to many. These are the last days, it going to get worse yet. IMO this is why Jesus asked would He find faith when He returned?

Churches of today have predominatly lost the fear of the Lord to walk in holiness, they know they dont have Gods blessing or power so they must back down when they get a hard problem. Its not a matter of being trained by Eygpt, its a matter of having power to say "be healed in Jesus` name or to give divine counsel. The disciples were sent out in two`s and they came back marvelling that they had power over all things. Yes not all things are demons, some are imbalances needing adjustment be it change of lifestyle or medical intervention, but anyone walking close to the Lord has access to His counsel and thats a must. If we dont have that closeness we shouldnt be in ministry, and are just playing church.

Amen

"Waffle"...I like that...very clever I agree. Did I give the impression that I don't believe the church is a God ordained vehicle to spread the gospel? But being the vehicle for spreading the gospel surely doesn't give the church the authority to take tithes on God's behalf? Wow, I don't recall saying that the Holy spirit abolishes the need to support pastors. What I wrote in regard to giving is: "I generally advise that Christians follow the lead of the Holy Spirit and if the Holy spirit says, "The pastor needs your help" then you give all you can...." - Post #64 I wonder, whether teaching manmade laws to cover the running expenses of a modern megachurch is what the author had in mind when he wrote, "A man who doesn't look after his family is worse than an unbeliever" This discussion as far as I understand is supposed to be about the doctrine of modern tithing and it's validity, not about whether it's effective in keeping churches open. I have no doubt that tithing is effective in making churches wealthy, the wealthiest churches in the world afterall, are also the ones that place the most emphasis on tithing. Scripture please? Friend, honestly have you read what I posted at all? I don't have an issue with supporting God's work, neither do I have a problem with pastors earning a living. What I do have an issue with is taking an old testament law, and modifying it entirely so that the only similarity with the original is the name 'tithing' and then teaching it as a God given law and enforcing this new law using scripture references to the original meaning coupled with threats about robbing God, appeals to emotion, anecdotal evidence and promises of financial blessings. If a church needs money, why not just ask for it? Why play tricks? If a church struggles and asks for help and the congregation is too self-centred and stingy to assist, then perhaps the pastor hasn't been preaching the gospel enough, not so? This is really what I think it boils down to: pastors nowadays don't really trust their congregations, which in turn reflects on their trust for God's providence, why else would they do this? Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Mat 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Mat 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. God bless Sorry Luft it looks like i was the one dong the waffling and i apologise for misreading what you were saying or atleast over reaching with my answers, and toying with your name, i though it was a play on words? i hope i have not made fun of you real name. I would only say that if you are appointed by God to shepherd a flock and your understanding is working for you, then all glory to God and may it be found helpful to others pehaps. Myself im a armchair critic or a back seat driver in the matter, so i guess i will continue tithing and recieving a harvest. I think you might be taking Math 10:7-10 out of context somewhat as this was a one off trip they were sent on before they had recieved the Holy Spirit at pentecost and before Paul was taught of Jesus personally in reguard to the running of the church etc., but im no expert. If the scriptures teach to tithe then it is tempting God to wait fior a specific prompting of the Holy Spirit to do what has already been commanded imo. Sorry but i just dont see what is gained by doing away with tithing even though some foolish people give a tithe to rascals, charlatans and even cults, but the abuse of a good thing does not warrant its removal, its the abuse that should be address. Maybe hand them over to Satan for the destruction of flesh, that the soul be saved? thats biblical

hi Luft, your user name betrays you, and you do seem to "waffle" on with a seemingly preconcieved idea that churches and pastors should be content with whatever scraps are thrown their way. While its true some are greedy "filthy money" lovers, the church is a God ordained vehicle to spread the gospel and gathering of the believers on the Lords Day. Its true also no one has to give 10%, but its not true that the Holy Spirit causes disorder by abolishing the need to support pastors and the costs of bulidings in the name of faith. The rule of thumb is that if we are part of a gathering we should pull our weight and "owe no man anything". Also he who does not look after his own family (which includes the church he attends) is "worse than an infidel." We may give to individuals and causes, but we are first obligated to give consistant regular support to any minister we regulary recieve from. Would you accept any less from your work place? why then do you make issue of tithing to support the work of God, and if its not Gods work then why give anything? God bless.

Its not necessarily about blame, but about reality. God tells us Satan roams about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he can devour. Satan is an unavoidable reality that Gods wisdom has decreed he exist for the time being, anyone who ignores this is foolish and will be devoured. Those that dont love God open themselves and their descendants up to Satans lies and cruelties, it is just the reality of the world we live in and is self governing sowing and reaping. Ignorance in any new country is no excuse or protection and its is equally so in Gods rule.

hi SDGS, i dont think any true christian hates gays or anyone for that matter, but its naieve to think the private actions of others do not affect all of us. If we do or dont pray we are affecting the world. Homosexuals equally affect the world by giving themselves up to their impulses rather than obeying God. Even if they do not all practice buggery, they all affect the young minds around them and will answer to God for that. Jesus has said if anyone stumbles a child they are better off dead. Because we are moral beings all our descisions have a moral component and we must give account for all of them.

Our thoughts produce our feelings, so while its true our feelings are real they can also be changed. We can change our preferences which changes our feelings. This is why we are commanded to love all, as our refusal to love others is only refusal to change our thoughts about them. Those that dont love God have wrong thoughts about Him, but those of us who know Him as He really is find it natural to love Him and even to worship His splendor and majesty. When we were young there were foods we liked and did not like, but later after getting new understanding of them, these are sometimes reversed. So if we highly value a character trait in a person we will also irresistably be attracted to them, and so there is some truth in the saying, with the cavet that we can choose different values.

Easy on there HP, i think a little christian grace might go along way to handling the (percieved?) annoyances of another personality? i dont think Dave was posting in any superior manner, perhaps you had a rough day mate. No emoticons were harmed or used in the making of this post.

hi sdktlk, welcome to worthy. that really speaks to me, hope to see more of your posts here.

Im like a man who has seen a vision, i dont know how its to fulfilled but also cant not talk about it. Or like the two beggars outside the gates when God slew the enemy, they said to themselves we better go tell the news lest we get in trouble for keeping it to ourselves. Even if i never see the reality of it, i can stil point to those who i know did have it in the hopes that even one does and God sets a fire amongst us.

Butero, you could class me as wesleyan, but at this stage i havnt experienced sanctification as a second experience. I only believe it is there for the getting. Some say we get it all at salvation, and that might be right positionally but i want it experiencially. As for ongoing being filled with the H/S, that too is concieveable to me, but i dont think speaking in tongues is proof of anything. Dave i dont think its got by works, like salvation its got by faith. The one thing im convinced of is that we need it. Its God alone who does the circumcising, and wether there be anything i ought to do to position myself for this i dont claim to know.

While i agree with your points Dave, the OP wasnt about holiness that i can see, its about testimony of how Wesley and Whitfeild recieved Power to win souls and live victoriously in Christ. My definition of holiness is a second work of grace that God bestows on undeserving sinners that circumcises their heart from the lure of sin. I do not live in this state, i only believe it is on offer from God, and the great preachers throughout history testify of having recieved it. I dont wish to get sidetracked into the whole "Paul was a sinner" debate as thats been done like burnt turkey. I just saw that quote and wanted to put it out there for others to look into, i am not qualified to defend it greatly as i am not living it. God bless.

Sorry Cobalt you misunderstand me and assume to know my motives, im not defensive nor unwilling to discuss anything. What i meant is the OP was to show what those used of God in the past lived by. I cant defend their position as i am not living it. I only asked you if your response was knee-jerk? no offense intended. "Let your yes be yes and no be no." You say you hold certain men in esteem for their doctrine, but seemed to me to come out knocking my mention of very highly respected christian men who changed their world with their preaching. If you wont allow the testimony of the very men i quote what more is their to discuss.? If i am discussing testimony and you are sola scriptura then i think we are at an impasse? The bible says we have to be ready to give an answer for our hope in the gospel, it doesnt say we must answer every question asked us, Jesus Himself refused answers at times. I was not meaning i wouldnt answer anyone, i just dont want to be drawn away from the intention of topic. I apologise if i have judged you or misunderstood you.

I thought id signed up for a cruise ship but after we got going i found out it was a war ship.

#7 Nebula #8 Hunterpoet, as far as i am aware waiting on the Lord for power is not inactivity, but its also not getting busy with things we havnt been asked to do. Its not a question of proof of salvation, its power to accomplish that which we have no power in or of ourselves to do. THose that testify to having recieved such power say they saw more souls saved in a few months than they had in all their previous years of dilgent study,prayer and witnessing. Like i say, im not trying to tell anyone they have to do anything specific, but if it speaks to any glory to God.

Thats funny as everyone here claims to base their thinking soley on the bible, yet theres not one that agrees with the other. I dont speak in tongues and Paul says its the least of the gifts. As far as i know neither did the preachers i mentioned, and they couldnt be accused of "grandiose manifestations" unless you call seeing souls saved grandiose? Have you read the biographies of these men or was that just a kneejerk reaction to preconcieved beliefs?

hi Dave, its not my intention to discuss holiness, i will leave that up to the individual. Theres no mention of sinlessness in that quote or my comments, im only saying that according to these men, "Power from above" is the FIRST thing a christian needs, but ive never heard that preached in any churches i know. How we get that i will also leave to the individual to seek God about, i certainly dont have the answers.

heres a quote from a article on Wesley and Whitfield. Im not into debating anything its just here for those who it might edify and point in the right direction for 2011. They all resisted heartily the Moravian notion of "stillness," namely, that seekers must not exercise any effort, either by prayer, repentance, or good works, nor share in Holy Communion until, in Whitefield's words, they had "received the Holy Ghost in the full assurance of it," as the Apostles did at Pentecost. http://truthinheart.com/EarlyOberlinCD/CD/Alethea/Whitefield.htm IMO this is why the church today is lacking in power and in need of revival, myself included. While most christians today say the have been baptised by the Holy Spirit, where is the "full assurance of it" as witnessed by "power from on high" As soon as christians a born, they are mostly told to begin to pray, do good and go out and witness to all, but thats not what the old time preachers taught who WERE filled with the Holy Ghost and POWER.

This shouldnt worry a christian, we are told to give double of what we are asked for. I wonder if we really believe that the enemy can do nothing to us without Gods permission? Are we not just sojourners in our lands, just passing through to our heavenly place. I dont say its easy. The other day i sold a washmachine that was going fine, but the guy rang up to say it blew the fuse when he plugged it in. I had stated that there was no warranty if i did not install it, but i also forgot to plug it in to prove it going before he put it on his trailer. I was more than angry at first as i was relying on the money. So im now giving his money back with apologies for my anger and his wasted time. Anyway its Gods money and if im a christian i am His.

What you are all forgetting is that God can reveal truth without the need of a Hebrew mindset. You are denying the power of God imo. The real problem is with those who claim to see, i am ok being blind, poor and beggarly.

Circular or linear it matters not as the Hebrew mind says a man must wear the tallith when he prays, but Paul says the mind of Christ is that "every man that prays with his head covered dishonours Christ. Having torn the veil in two, Christ has brought a radical change to the relations between God and man. The claim that the greek mind cannot understand the things of God, denies His power and the work of the Holy Spirit to bring revelation.

You keep ignoring this. Why? Those that are "spiritual" dont make a habit of boasting or making claims, their lives make it evident. Everyone has a theology even if they cant articulate it. I only point to Finney as his theology is the only one i have read extensively and am in agreement with. It makes me laugh from the absurdity of it, that you Americans reject a man who was probably the greatest spiritual influence in your history and are unaware of the huge legacy he left. He was probably the greatest influence in abolishing slavery and championing womens rights through preaching true repentance. Sorry for ignoring you, i have tried to explain my thinking and we are at an impasse? Your probably right, i just dont get what your saying when you use those terms, please pray that God enlighten me.

Hey Joe, like i said i have tattoos, but when i got saved i repented of scibbling on Gods art book.