hmbld

Hey Willa! I clicked the link, and read a good portion, but I also was unable to grasp what was being pointed out. Its not necessarily the length, as I have read and followed other links supplied that were long also, and I thank you for the supplied overview.

I am seeing your point a little clearer every day, (I think!) Even your 4 free will questions, I did not understand yesterday, but today, I see the point your making. I think much of what your saying, depends on understanding something we can never understand, that is, God's foreknowledge, it changes your perspective depending how you understand foreknowledge. Question: "for it is not even able to do so", I agree, we do not have free will to come to God, so God gives us faith, and at this point, do we have free will in our response? I suspect your already going there, and obviously faith does not automatically bring salvation: James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Let me say whew! Great post! Now, with all the activity on this thread, I had thought I would start a new thread, but you have addressed it here. I will think on it, for maybe this thread is so broad I can not follow everything. For the sake of this discussion, I think we can agree that in regards to free will, we are discussing man's ability to accept or resist Jesus for salvation; if you can't choose how you want your eggs tomorrow, maybe your not hungry! 2 Cor 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. Now I agree, we all need God's intervention, or we would never come to Him on our own, yet you are taking it one step further, stating that we can not accept or reject Him of our own decision, for He has already decided. I will even allow, you could possibly be correct. Yet there are many passages, such as this 2 Cor 5:20, that make me think if everyone is already chosen beforehand, why would we "implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God"? This is another passage that seems to speak of a person, has to make a decision. To be honest, in my reading, there are multiple scriptures that support what you are saying Mega, I am just not posting those as you seem very well aware of them, lol. Certainly, none of us deserve salvation, so it is hard to say God is not fair by saving some. Now, on Got Questions, it had an example of a man could hand out $100 bills randomly on the street. Not all will receive money, but some would. Romans 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! We are not saved based on any of our own merit, yet you are saying God alone chooses who He saves, could God, who is described by "How unsearchable are His judgments and how inscrutable His ways!" be said to have chosen us at random? Isn't it easier to offer salvation to all, and if they reject His offer, well, change of thought, I think I am arguing for all the sermons I have heard on this subject, yet there is a very strong question, deep in my mind, I can't answer. Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

I have stopped on this passage as it troubled me, it is one of many passages that seem to contradict other parts of scripture, which tells me I have not comprehended it yet. If this passage were true, which it is, but without regard to other scripture, then it truly does sound like a person has no part in the saving grace. But what about the relationship aspect. God calls us to evangelize, to pray for others, He calls us to repent, I mean, why pray for others if God as already decided everything? Two kinds of people who pray, those who ask for something as if we can change anything God does, and those who ask for God to change their heart to follow His.

There is way too much I want to comment and ask about, so I will just pick one. In this section, you stated Adam "chose" to rebel against God. Second paragraph, you again said we chose to rebel. In reference to God's sovereignty, you have said we can not choose to accept Jesus, as that is allowing us too much, but here you are saying people at least have free will to choose to sin. Question, do you mean to say that any choosing to accept Jesus, is only the result of the Holy Spirit working in us, then so by choosing us? Do I understand you correctly in that John 3:16, God really doesn't mean anybody can be a whosoever? I am wanting to argue against that, based on Jesus said to repent, which sounds to me like we are responsible for making a choice to repent? I lose my train of thought, I just reread your response, your saying God chooses, who He chooses, and none of it can be altered by our decisions, which makes it seem like a futile exercise. Now, of course God can do what He chooses to do, but couldn't He also have decided to call to all people, and choose to let people have free will to answer yes or no? Got Questions: There is a sense in which God draws all men. This is known as the “general call” and is distinguished from the “effectual call” of God’s elect. Passages such as Psalm 19:1-4 and Romans 1:20 attest to the fact that God’s eternal power and divine nature are “clearly seen” and “understood” from what has been made, “so that people are without excuse.” But men still do deny God, and those who acknowledge His existence still do not come to a saving knowledge of Him outside of His drawing them. Only those who have been drawn through special revelation—by the power of the Holy Spirit and the grace of God—will come to Christ. Now I ask, if only people are saved due to this "effectual call" of God's elect, then why does God have a "general call", in which people are without excuse, yet they can't choose to be saved, they can only be saved if God chooses this "effectual call"? I agree God's ways are so far over our heads, we can not know, but when Jesus calls for us to repent, it seems to present an opportunity to respond, as if God is giving us free will, independent of His calling to us, to decide. That is not taking any sovereignty away from God, it is only responding.

Mega, I want to discuss free will a little more, from your post this morning, I don't have time right now but will be back. I have realized much of my position, is based off sermons I have heard, and only recently have been starting to realize some (maybe most) sermons are given as fact when they are only someones opinion, much as I probably do the same. If you have scripture in mind to back up your position that God in His sovereignty chooses us, I would like to examine it more thoroughly. If you don't get to it, its fine, I'll reread some of your posts and do a study myself.

Yes, we all deserve Hell, though I am having trouble accepting the idea that God chooses to send people to Hell. My understanding is hell was created due to God's Holiness, sin must be dealt with. Not choosing to send, as you say, but has to do with His very character. Why do you say some can't accept God's sovereignty if they believe He gives us a choice to choose? If no one can really choose, as that would mean we have a part in salvation(which is only a response, not a controlling factor), if we are truly picked and rejected by God, than why evangelize? They are already chosen, no need?

Not my post but I like that answer the best, as all the characters are important, but only because of Jesus. So I also could not pick a most important character, as they have no importance without Jesus.

This is something I wish to ponder on for a while, thanks! But, I just read this from Got Questions: Here is an opposing argument to theological fatalism: God is omniscient. Since God is omniscient, He is also infallible. If God has infallible foreknowledge that tomorrow you will mow the lawn, then you will freely choose to do so, not out of obligation or lack of choice. You still have free will to mow the lawn or not mow it; God merely knows your choice before you make it. You are not obliged to mow the lawn tomorrow any more than you are to play tennis or bake a cake. If you were going to change your mind, God would have seen that also, so you still have free will in all matters. Also, you will still make the same choices (exercising your free will), even if God chose not to see the future. God’s passive foreknowledge of the future does not alter your free will. Serious students of the Bible do not believe that things “just happen.” Christians reject fatalism and godless determinism. Rather, they understand that a wise, holy, good, and sovereign God has control of every detail of life (Matthew 10:29–30). The man who does not really want God to have this control or who despises the truth of God’s sovereignty does not love God and does not want God in his life. But God is sovereign, and He cannot deny Himself. Now, these two paragraphs were on the same page, the first i completely agree with, and the second seems to be agreeing with what Mega is saying? Matthew 10:29-30 is offered as God controls every detail. Now, we all offer opinions, yet I can't figure out if this is even something we can know. I have been quite content not needing to know the final word on free will, predestination, God's foreknowledge, etc., but when people ask questions who don't think God has chosen them, they don't like the standard I don't know answer. Got Questions: Calvinism includes the belief that God’s grace is irresistible, while Arminianism says that an individual can resist the grace of God. Irresistible grace argues that when God calls a person to salvation, that person will inevitably come to salvation. Resistible grace states that God calls all to salvation, but that many people resist and reject this call. If grace is resistible, then we are prideful in thinking of our importance? I think at times I am not supposed to have all the "correct" answers, and be content to talk with people, point to what scripture says, and even allow that I don't know. So many people seem to think they know all these things for sure, when they are debated, it seems that God's knowledge He shares in scripture is so far above what any of us can understand. So though I admit I don't understand all this, I enjoy the interaction with all of you. Maybe that is more important than knowing all the answers?

As when Jesus said to repent: Mark 1:14-15 Jesus Begins His Ministry 14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” Why does Jesus say to repent, unless one can make the choice to repent?

God knowing what choice we make, is not God taking our choice away. Perhaps your right, at times I have thought maybe God chooses, and rejects. Then I ponder on how God says He wills for all to be saved. Our pride may make us say I choose God, but scripture then tells us God choose us, and called to us. But if God wills for all to be saved, then in His sovereignty does not do His own will, what do I make of that? That my understanding is faulty, for sure much of my understanding is faulty, which is why I am here trying to learn. So following that thought, that scripture says many will not be saved, I have reversed my opinion that we have no choice. God must allow us to reject Him if His will really is that all should be saved. Mega, I always slow down when I find your posts, as I love the way you word your thoughts. I wanted to quickly say I appreciate you. Were you ever an instructor or teacher?

Self-esteem, as we use the term, really is about loving ourselves, isn't it? I am important, I am good, etc. All the fun little sayings that are pushed, you have to love yourself first, you have to seek your own happiness, live for today, I deserve to be loved, I deserve happiness, etc. All miss the mark, but seem to be popular. As Kwik said, "I know who I am in Christ because I ESTEEM "Jesus" WHO abides in me,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,". I am important to God, He made me, Jesus died to save me. My self worth, or self-esteem has in the past, been based on myself. What I can do. Looking towards self. All that is temporary. Looking to Jesus, He never changes. That is solid rock, who does Jesus say I am? Who gets the glory when all is based on Jesus? Not self!

I know you said much, but my mind works mostly on one tree at at time, instead of the whole forest lol. Taking this example, calls to my mind that God makes Himself known to all, and everyone has a responsibility to accept God or not, which means they have a very small part in the pardoning, where as in your example of two criminals, well it makes it sound like they are at most two pawns. As to your comments on God's foreknowledge is set in stone, nobody can change it, does not mean that God has given us no chance to accept Him, just because He already knows everything. God's sovereignty, is His sovereignty in jeopardy if He chooses to let man accept or reject Him? Mega, this is a puzzle that hurts my head, I am saying I don't know. Six years ago when God spoke to me, I would have described it as I had no choice, I could not refuse Him. Now, I say I recognized I wanted the light, I could choose the darkness, yet I wanted nothing to do with the darkness, and I desperately threw myself at His feet and told Him I can't do it myself, I needed Him to help me.

Since the topic isn't actually being discussed anyway, (sorry Jade), I'll interject my own off topic comment. I understand not everyone's response meets the criteria to keep everyone else happy lol. I happen to like the references to Got Questions, I do read them. Maybe there are others who read them also.

Amen Angels!

You raise an interesting question I have not been able to understand, when Jesus healed some, he said to tell no one. Yet, scripture tells us to bring Jesus to all nations, and I have to admit, proclaiming Jesus is Lord is something that has really stood out to me. So I am not used to the thought of secret believers, I wonder if someone could expound on this subject.

Sure, it is a written confession. And no ones heart is hidden from Jesus. Even before I read the bible cover to cover, I confessed Jesus is God, and Jesus is Lord. You say you don't want to be difficult anymore, I wonder, if your not in the U.S. maybe some country that may persecute Christians? I don't know, as I want others to know Jesus is God, why you held back?

Strongs: A primitive root; to increase (in whatever respect) -- (bring in) abundance (X -antly), + archer (by mistake for rabab), be in authority, bring up, X continue, enlarge, excel, exceeding(-ly), be full of, (be, make) great(-er, -ly, X -ness), grow up, heap, increase, be long, (be, give, have, make, use) many (a time), (any, be, give, give the, have) more (in number), (ask, be, be so, gather, over, take, yield) much (greater, more), (make to) multiply, nourish, plenty(-eous), X process (of time), sore, store, thoroughly, very. I see no replenish here. Genesis 1:28 HEB: פְּר֥וּ וּרְב֛וּ וּמִלְא֥וּ אֶת־ הָאָ֖רֶץ NAS: and multiply, and fill the earth, KJV: and multiply, and replenish the earth, INT: to them be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue It looks like only Kjv used the word "replenish" I think we need someone more familiar with translating to jump in here.

Hebrew interlinear Bible or Bible dictionary, the word translated as ‘replenish’ in Genesis 1:28 is the Hebrew verb מלאו (mil’û), which simply means fill. Not refill. Which is why most modern versions translate the word in Genesis 1:28 as fill. Creating a story line based off of faulty understanding of a word meaning is fun, but does not make it true.

I first read of this Lucifer's thread idea here at Worthy some years ago, and researched some where I found these lists comparing Lucifer's flood to Noah's flood, and started reading all these comparisons, well, my eyes were not opened. In fact, I was unable to follow how anyone can read a Lucifer's flood into scripture without stretching or twisting what is actually said. I agree with Ezra, we do not see any pre-adamites in scripture, or any creation prior to creation. It is not willful disbelief to believe that Genesis tells us what was created in six days.

Ok, I think I understand what your saying. So do you believe every law is to be followed, except the animal sacrifices?

Hebrews 8:13 In that he said, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away.

It seems many sheep look for opportunities to call others goats. Yes, even scripture points out that many believe they are sheep, but Jesus will tell them He never knew them. That is scary. But I don't think it is beneficial to call others goats, or tares. Let me follow Jesus with no regard to any thing of this world, and let me learn to alway point to Jesus, the hope that is available to everyone, let me learn to encourage and lift up others, let me not get caught up in the mud slinging, rock throwing, thinking that my being right is more important than caring for others. In agreement with you as to doing a self-check, or examine ourselves rather than judging others. Even when I try to make this a priority, at the end of the day, I realize I have not yet succeeded.

Great point! Yes, I agree we are all works in progress, and we must extend grace to each other, and even so it is good to discuss scriptures, I pray you did not feel I picked up any stones as I said what I remembered Jesus had said in scripture. I am excited to read your words as a humble and patient brother or sister is much easier to learn from! Yes, a lot of work needs to be done, and all the more we see others need work, let us remember that we may need all the more work in humble patience! God bless! P.S. The best teachers I ever had were the ones who cared! Not the ones who knew everything!

It was only 6 years ago, when God spoke to me, and I immediately took to reading scripture cover to cover, and could not sleep after reading until I took to filling notebooks by copying scripture. Shortly after this, I would sometimes write short notes in my bible. I grew up with the notion somehow, that a bible is to be treated with more respect than other books, never creasing a page, never setting the bible on the floor, etc. Now I see it as paper, the treasure is in the Truth in its words! As to your question, I find it impossible to limit myself to the small amount of room in the margins for notes, a notebook is a must. The amazing thing, is by later reading the notes, it seems much clearer to see how the Holy Spirit was teaching! (I don't get things right away lol) Does Jesus care if we write notes alongside His words?