Willa

The original Jewish worship service was held in the home, wasn't It? Perhaps I am mistaken. But I can't help but believe that our homes would be stronger if the parents and children worshipped and prayed together. I always look forward to praying with my husband. It brings us very close to each other and to God. The ministry of a father to his children is very meaningful and his prayers for them build strong relationships. Studying the Word together is also a real blessing. Our grandkids are hungry to know God's word and not just Bible stories.

Jim, you are right that we can stir one another up in the most holy faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So we can read the Word and listen to sound teaching. These are some of the reasons for attending church as welI. Fellowship and the testimonies of others also help to build up our faith. I agree that giving is both a blessing to the giver and a privilege. I disagree with the blessings and curses applying to Christians under the new covenant. They were directed to the nation of Israel. Israel had neglected the tithe of the land, letting it go fallow every 7th year, and for that reason she was sent into captivity in Babylon. Malachi was a challenge to the people of Israel. This all is part of the bondage to tithing that I referred to. We are not under the law. Shiloh best expressed my thoughts about God's sovereignty. We do not believe in faith healing. We believe that God heals. People who hang everything on their faith are not depending on God. They are depending on their faith. So they try to work up faith and are afraid to express a negative thought because it might destroy their faith. So they practice positive confession. This whole idea is wrong. Often it is even lying to try to work up faith in this way. Praying, Lord, I believe, help my unbelief is valid. Then we are relying on God to grant us faith. He is our Source. As I said, I believe it is wrong to give to get. This is a part of having the right attitude. A gift should not have strings attached. We give freely. Paul only prays a blessing "May He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food, supply and multiply the seed you have sown and increase the fruits of your righteousness, while you are enriched in everything for all liberality. 2 Cor. 9:10-11a NKJV It is not a promise. He claims that God is able to make all grace abound to you in V.8. This is true. Again it is His unmerited favor that is spoken of. We don't earn or merit His blessing by our giving. God does reward us whenever we obey Him. It is part of our training. We are rewarded with peace and joy. I am sorry that I have not been expressing myself clearly. Thank you Shiloh for helping me out. By disagreeing we are offering another perspective, often gained by our own trial and errors and the bad fruit we have seen as a result of bad teaching. We are not trying to shoot one another down but to exhort and encourage one another to a better way. Blessings to you as well, brother. Willa

Yes and amen! We belong to God and have His mark on us.

This would also depend on how much faith a person has towards God and tithing. When we give out of Love and Trust in God and His word and know that we know He will bless us back then we tithe even if it looks like we wont eat for God can do more through your tithe then we could through spending the money on food. When we give because we feel forced to or to make a show of it or because we feel we have to do this or God will get us then our tithes will not produce the fruits in return that we had wanted. The story of the widow woman and her few mites is an example of the first in which had total trust and faith in God and you know God moved on her behalf quickly. Speaking of which how about the woman and her son who BELIEVED their man of God Elijah and prepared the last of thier food for the prophet or man of God....What happened ? She never knew lack again.... Tithing and giving can be placed right up there with some reaped 30 fold and some reaped 60 fold and some reaped 100 fold. How much Faith and trust do you have in God and His written word........think of it like this.....those who reaped 30 fold had about 30 fold faith and 70 fold doubt and unbelief......People tend to believe that their own faith is strong but continue to speak words of doubt and unbelief and fear and so forth. This works against your faith. It is said through out His written word out of the abundance of the heart the mouth does speak and issues of life flow through our mouths. I said this because His word also teaches us we need to keep seed and the tithe watered or moistend and in good ground. Most people tend to think the ground is only about where you planted the tithe or seed but your heart and words matter much. In short.........ones tithe can bring blessings or nothing or very little depending on the heart and faith of the one who Gives it. God said He would rebuke the devourer for our sake but if the tithe is not given correctly or out of a true heart then yea buy your food instead but for me and my house................We can simply NOT afford to NOT tithe. Every single penny that comes into our home gets tithed on. Blessings jim We are not God. Nor are we like God--that was the temptation of the serpent in the garden. We can't speak anything into existance. Nor do we need much faith. We only need a tiny bit of faith in a great God. Very little depends on our faith. God is a God of grace--unmerited favor. He is more apt to answer humble prayers of desperation out of His compassion, not because I am worthy in any way or have great faith.. I consider positive confession to be little more than superstition. Moreover, the TOS I subscribed to when I joined Worthy states that we believe Jesus was fully God and fully man while on this earth. So I can't subscribe to Word of Faith teaching and believe it is grievous error. Occasionally God has replaced what I have given and to the penny; but most often He has simply supplied our needs, which is all I ask. He has instead made us better stewards, modified our desires, and helped us to find sales and even used items. We are content with what we have. 1 Tim. 6:6-10 teaches us to be content with food and clothing, not to have faith He will multiply back to us what we have given. Explain why it is written in the word of God many times the phrase "even as" also you said this.......... ((We can't speak anything into existance. Nor do we need much faith. We only need a tiny bit of faith in a great God. Very little depends on our faith. God is a God of grace--unmerited favor. He is more apt to answer humble prayers of desperation out of His compassion, not because I am worthy in any way or have great faith.. I consider positive confession to be little more than superstition. )))) Dont need much faith ? Very little depends on our Faith ? So what would you do with Hebrews 11:6 ? Or what about Gen. 15:6 or even Romans 4:3 or even Galatians 3:6 ? We could go on and on about how your statement on faith is limited just by quoting scriptures. Also why are you jumping out like this about word of faith teaching and stuff towards me ? Have a great night but Faith is needed big time Jim We only need faith as a grain of mustard seed. A little bit of faith in a great God. It depends mostly on Him. Very little depends on us. I didn't say we don't need faith. Walking in the Spirit is a walk of faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God. The just shall live by his faith. By GRACE you have been saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the GIFT OF GOD, not of works lest anyone should boast. So even our faith is a gift from God. It depends on the grace He gives us to exercise the faith He has given us. You make it seem that God won't bless us if we don't have ENOUGH faith, or if we doubt. I maintain that you can't pump up faith. It is a gift. It is based on God's character. Whenever I hear people saying that a person has to have the right faith and the right heart I hear people criticizing others of not having enough faith or their hearts must not be right when they have hard times. We should never second guess God. He does all things well. Read Job. Many people believe with a good heart but still come upon hard times, lose jobs, have pay cuts. God provides, but sometimes it is not the way we want or the amount we think we need, or when we think we need it. We are to be content with food and clothing. Most of the OT scriptures you used were written to the Jews under the old covenant and are out of context, as is the idea of keeping the ground moist and all. I don't see the things promised that you claim. When I give to God I expect nothing in return. But I do rely on Him to supply our needs apart from our giving. I just believe it is wrong to give to get. I was speaking about Word of Faith because you were pretty much repeating their beliefs, such as the positive confession bit, life and death are in the tongue, which grew out of the teaching of Hagen et all--- Copeland, Hagee and the people mentioned by others. It spread through my church in the 70s and split it. It is not sound teaching. Oral Roberts came up with seed faith--I had the book. He also sold prayer handkerchief for "love offerings" and made it a big business. I don't have much respect for that teaching because it does put people into bondage to the law. He wasn't much different than the others today. The fact that you are afraid not to tithe shows the bondage you are in. I have many close friends who believe like you and I love them more than words can tell, but I firmly disagree. Please forgive me for taking my frustrations with them out on you.

This would also depend on how much faith a person has towards God and tithing. When we give out of Love and Trust in God and His word and know that we know He will bless us back then we tithe even if it looks like we wont eat for God can do more through your tithe then we could through spending the money on food. When we give because we feel forced to or to make a show of it or because we feel we have to do this or God will get us then our tithes will not produce the fruits in return that we had wanted. The story of the widow woman and her few mites is an example of the first in which had total trust and faith in God and you know God moved on her behalf quickly. Speaking of which how about the woman and her son who BELIEVED their man of God Elijah and prepared the last of thier food for the prophet or man of God....What happened ? She never knew lack again.... Tithing and giving can be placed right up there with some reaped 30 fold and some reaped 60 fold and some reaped 100 fold. How much Faith and trust do you have in God and His written word........think of it like this.....those who reaped 30 fold had about 30 fold faith and 70 fold doubt and unbelief......People tend to believe that their own faith is strong but continue to speak words of doubt and unbelief and fear and so forth. This works against your faith. It is said through out His written word out of the abundance of the heart the mouth does speak and issues of life flow through our mouths. I said this because His word also teaches us we need to keep seed and the tithe watered or moistend and in good ground. Most people tend to think the ground is only about where you planted the tithe or seed but your heart and words matter much. In short.........ones tithe can bring blessings or nothing or very little depending on the heart and faith of the one who Gives it. God said He would rebuke the devourer for our sake but if the tithe is not given correctly or out of a true heart then yea buy your food instead but for me and my house................We can simply NOT afford to NOT tithe. Every single penny that comes into our home gets tithed on. Blessings jim We are not God. Nor are we like God--that was the temptation of the serpent in the garden. We can't speak anything into existance. Nor do we need much faith. We only need a tiny bit of faith in a great God. Very little depends on our faith. God is a God of grace--unmerited favor. He is more apt to answer humble prayers of desperation out of His compassion, not because I am worthy in any way or have great faith.. I consider positive confession to be little more than superstition. Moreover, the TOS I subscribed to when I joined Worthy states that we believe Jesus was fully God and fully man while on this earth. So I can't subscribe to Word of Faith teaching and believe it is grievous error. Occasionally God has replaced what I have given and to the penny; but most often He has simply supplied our needs, which is all I ask. He has instead made us better stewards, modified our desires, and helped us to find sales and even used items. We are content with what we have. 1 Tim. 6:6-10 teaches us to be content with food and clothing, not to have faith He will multiply back to us what we have given.

We started giving as God lead us many years ago, and did so beyond our means at times. But as time went on our AOG church started teaching that God would not bless us if we didn't give. We were placed under horrible bondage that was very difficult to shake off. I finally concluded that it was wrong for me to go into credit card debt in order to pay tithes. We have gone without Christmas dinner, eating macaroni and cheese, in order to pay tithes. And it was not cheerful giving. They were teaching the same thing a few years ago when we visited with my cousin. The whole service was about "if you want a blessing, come and put your money on the stage. And if you want a double blessing, come and put more up here now. I went away shaking my head and thankful to be in another place that teaches that "God doesn't need your money--He owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He wants your heart." We went from the AOG to the Baptist chuch where members had to vow to tithe, "as God enabled us." Since I desire to support my local church I eagerly did so out of my own part time earnings. Hubby did not join there. I later learned that it was because of that requirement. But I was critcized for not giving from our combined incomes. When our son and his pregnant wife were going without food, subsisting on top raman, I gave my tithes to them. I would be worse than an infidal for not helping them. Again I was criticized. No one even asked if we were having trouble or why, but both of our incomes had also been reduced due to company cut backs. However, the church treasurer, who had been putting pressure on our small group leader to call us on it, called us himself and demanded our back payments. He had made our delinqency widely known to leadership. I was unable to comply. As said, the last 10 years we have finally been in a Calvary Chapel that never makes known its need or asks us to give, even for building projects. And once again we are able to give eagerly to support our church as well as various home and foreign missions. Visitors are asked not to give at our church. 1 Cor. 8:5 But they first gave themselves to the Lord, and then to us by the will of God". v.2 that in great trial and affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded in the riches of their liberality." It is the fruit of our greatful joy of knowing Christ that moves us to give back. When we give Him ourselves we give everything we possess as well. It is not difficult to give when we are so blessed. God gave His Only Son. Jesus gave His life for us. How can we not give to Him? It is a ministry of love. We also give to empoverished churches as God directs us. Our brothers and sisters overseas don't even have Bibles! I might add that giving to avoid a curse is giving out of compulsion. Even worse, it is coming under the horrible bondage of the law. We should never give out of fear. We should only give to God eagerly out of joyful gratitude. He will direct where it should go.

I wish our music team would learn to pray while they play and sing. Maybe some would do a better job if they did. People who do so unto the Lord are better able to bring us into God's Presence as well. As it is I sit there and pray for them instead.

In theory. You failed to note the decline in true fundamentalism which I brought to your attention. Those who are now in the Emergent Church had fundamentalist roots. Take Rob Bell as an example: Was Fuller Fundamentalist at one time? And did it not become Neo-Evangelical? And is Rob Bell not one of the Emergents? And is he not a Universalist? Tragicly, too many people have gone to seminaries searching for God and are not saved. He apparently parroted the right things at one time but unbelief crept into his theology, possibly due to Fuller's deviation from believing in the verbal plenery inspiration of the Bible. I personally doubt if he was ever saved, but it is possible that pride overcame him and caused his fall and unbelief. Most fundamentalists that I have known have preferred Dallas to Fuller, which was established with the idea of compromise. Veritas has a much better reputation than Fuller. It is tragic the Bell has led so many toward the hell he denies. But the emergent church has as many faces as their are devient pastors. The Episcopal church has produced its share of heritics as well. Remember James Pike? I don't think you can blame fundamentalism for the whole of the emergent church. But you can bet that satan will try to pervert the truth on the fronts that are most dangerous to his cause.

I am sure he is sitting at the feet of Jesus today. And He shall wipe away their tears. This hits very close to home. He was the same age as our grandson who loves the Lord.

John 10:10b I have come that they may have life and that they may have it more abundantly. Dispite physical pain, concerns for family who are also wracked with pain, and daily trials, our son recently said "But I know people who have all the world wants but are not happy, have no peace, and have no fulfillment." We don't measure success by the world's standards. We are rich when we have Christ. We have his forgiveness and His Life in us. We have the Comforter or Helper, the Holy Spirit guiding us and shoring us up. Others say if you have your health you have everything. But many of us don't have that either yet have God's love in us and supporting us, so we feel we are triumphant in all things through Christ Jesus. Few things are more satisfying than being a part of seeing others receive Christ. It is exciting to witness as to what God has done in our lives, and/or being His instrument as He gives us the words another person needs to hear. Walking in the Spirit is an exciting and rewarding walk of faith. And leaving a legacy of faith in our children and grandchildren is also rewarding. We know we have left behind the strength to persevere when we have taught them that the source of their strength is in God and in His Word.

If God considers gold to be dirt or pavement, I don't think that those kinds of riches should dazzel us either. Being in His Presence is all the riches I want. To worship Him with all the saints and angels is enough to blow my mind. We are to desire heavenly riches that thieves can't steal. So even though the New Jeruselem is discribed in worldly terms, I don't see those things as being riches at all. Being in our Father's Light, drinking from the River of Life, the Holy Spirit, in the Presence of Christ's majesty, in all the purity and love we can imagine is riches beyond measure.

I see no relationship between fundamentalists and the emergent church. By definition they are complete opposites. There is a branch of the emergent church that teaches replacement theology, which has never been advocated by fundamentalists.

All I know for sure is that life is not worth living without a close relationship with God. And anything that might threaten than relationship has to go. So if that means jail time, so be it--as long as my Bible goes with me.

Liberal christianity in general doesn't subscribe to the Bible, so it is a case of each man doing what is right in his own eyes and the blind leading the blind. A "if it feels good it can't be wrong" theology, or a "my god would not have made hell" theology is a product of the same thinking. There is no personal accountability. It becomes a social gospel or a socialist theology. Being good is defined by ambiguous ideas of "I'm as good as the next guy". They have completely left out love of God. And loving your neighbor may mean sex in someone's eyes. Without God's Word there is no black and white, and they are wondering about in a gray fog, going nowhere but down.

When I go to church it is to have corporate fellowship in the Spirit. When I don't say a word to anyone I still come away refreshed and uplifted. According to 1 John 1 the blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin when we are in fellowship with God and other believers. But God ministers to me through the music as well, and much more so than listening to canned music. Then the sermon--the spoken Word, edifies me. We have a 45 min to 1 hr. sermon and I hang on each word as we check references and thoroughly explore the passage. It usually challanges me to reach out more and testafy to others of the wonderful things God does in our lives. Partaking of Holy Communion is a blessing as I remember Christ's suffering for my sin, and for the new covenant, and His promise to come again.. It reinforces to me that we are one body, each with his own burdens, and how much we all need His love. What can I do to lift someone else's burden? God is alive, well and working in our church. I go there to have corporate fellowship with God in worship and praise. Since our church has few formal trappings, not much ritual, no glam and glitz, no statues, church atire or colors, no church calander, and very little pretence, I can't relate to much of what you speak of. But when I went back to one of the dead churches after being filled with the Holy Spirit, I found myself singing the gloria from my heart through tears of meaningfulness while the rest of the congregation mouthed words rotely and droned empty responses. The pastor asked why I am different. I shruged it off since it was not the time or place for a theological confrontation about the Holy Spirit v.s. trained elephants. Pastors who don't believe the Bible are hard to reason with from Scripture.

I ran into one who said that she did not realize that Jesus is God prior to coming there. That is true, but Jesus also prayed to Father God. Then He asked the Father to send us the Holy Spirit so after He ascended we are not left alone, wiithout God With Us, Immanuel. We still have God with us and now He resides in us as well. We still worship One God. It is as though He were one God with 3 faces, but each has different functions as well. 3 Persons of 1 God. I have trouble saying that these people are not Christians as well, since who among us totally understand God and the Trinity. It is something that we accept because we can rationalize it, but it is still beyond human comprehension. But I agree that legalism may cause them to fall from grace.

The longer I am a Christian, and the more fully I comprehend the heights and depths of God's love, the more frail I recognize my love for Him is. Only Christ in me can love the Father perfectly. I can't even fully perceive God, He is so far above my understanding. The one thing I am sure of it that He hears me, knows me, and loves me anyhow. That compassion in itself is hard for me to grasp, that a holy God can stoop to rescue rotten, evil people from sin. So I have to agree with Peter. I phileo God is much as my human love can. In the end God gave Peter the grace to die for his faith. But that kind of love is a gift, and I can only hope that God will provide it when needed. Meanwhile self needs to decrease that Christ may increase.

The wisdom of Jesus comes straight from Father God, since He said nothing but what the Father gave Him.. Yet few people hungered for wisdom like the queen had. In fact not many really listened to Jesus and took it all to heart. Only 120 followers were left waiting for the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. So we can assume that only they had truly repented. There may have been a few more since people like Joseph of Aramthea who offered his toomb were followers who did not confess Him openly. But the whole city of thousands at Ninavah had repented, and Jonah had great hatred for the people he had preached to. Jesus loved and had compassion on the people yet they did not repent. That is why they will shame the unrepentant who also dispised the wisdom of God.

My additions are in brackets and taken from Zodhiates' Word Study Dictionary.

I won't go so far as to burn him at the stake, but a dunking stool might be a good solution. I'm sure he doesn't believe there is a hell, either.

The Holy Spirit enlightens us and leads us into all truth. We can pray for His light on the subject for ourselves as well as those we are trying to convince.

He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Even a queen would bow to Him. Make Him Who He is.

He turns it over to a muslim country to negotiate the release of jihad leaders for one prisoner.

When these first were being reported in the 60s and 70s I began to notice that the areas that they happened in were also areas where a lot of occult activing was reported. So I suspect that deception and evil spirits may be involved. But it is better to focus on the things God is doing. Too much focus on evil is not healthy. Read Romans 8:5 We walk in the Spirit by focusing on the things of God. Then read the works of the flesh and of the Spirit in Galatians 5.

Reality is something you or other people can feel, taste, see, touch or hear. It can also be a power that exerts an influence on your life, such as gravity which keeps you from floating away and makes things feel heavy, or good such as love, or evil which wants to hurt you. The Bible says that only God is good, and God is love. So God is a reality in our lives.