Diaste

By mankind, yes. My point is that Jews are a religion and they are not Israel. Israel the nation of borders is also not the Israel of God. Paul is speaking about the Israel of God in Romans 11. The Israel of God failed in it's search but the elect did not, that elect is not prejudicial. Israel failed the elect did not, the rest were hardened. "What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened," The 'others were hardened'? This implies the elect were originally of Israel since the 'others' are of Israel, that means some of Israel are the elect. This idea supports the overarching concept of the elect being those in Christ, of the seed of Abraham and their origins from Israel. I don't need it simplified or clarified. I was pointing out the fact Jews have nothing to do with it. Jew is a religion, man made, man defined, man supported and has nothing to do with the Israel of God.

Please provide chapter and verse of this cause and effect. And where is the scriptural evidence? That word you keep using, blindness, is a hardening of the heart. It's only used 3 time in the NT: Mark 3, Romans 11 and Ephesians 4. I looked at all 3 just now. Mark and Ephesians do not shed light on the conclusory statements above. Romans 11 is better at defining the effects of the hardening and it's purpose but does not assist in rendering your conclusions valid. The hardening serves a clear purpose: I ask then, did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery?f Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! 13I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch; if the root is holy, so are the branches. It's also not the dire prediction you would have others believe. Hear what Paul says about that: "Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!" The trouble here is one of belief, not an undefined moment of 'fullness of the Gentiles', as though the fulness of the Gentiles is an elevated position above the natural branches: Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly notg spare you either. I'm thinking you may have inadvertently missed Paul's full exposition of the concepts in Romans 11. No matter. It happens.

One aspect upon which you hang your hopes ignoring the full landscape. A prime example of this is the next paragraph which must have been an accidental oversight on your part: "People sometimes ask how King David could be a Jew given that one of his female ancestors, Ruth, was not a Jew. However, Ruth converted to Judaism before marrying Boaz and bearing Obed. (In Ruth 1:16 she states her intention to convert.) After she converted, Ruth was Jewish, and her children born after the conversion were Jewish as well. Even so, Ruth is David’s paternal ancestor, so Ruth’s Jewish identity or lack thereof would not impact King David’s status as a Jew because King David’s Jewish status is determined matrilineally." As I said, anyone, from anywhere, can be a Jew, as stated at the beginning of the article you quoted. The fact that you missed it must have been another unintentional oversight. Here it is again: Jews come in all shapes, sizes, ethnicities, and nationalities. There are black Jews from Ethiopia, Chinese Jews from Shanghai and Indian Jews. There are Jews from Morocco and Iran, Jews from South America and Oceania. The practices and beliefs held by Jews range from those who openly identify as Orthodox and strictly observe ancient precepts to those that have nothing to do with the religion or culture.

Not at all. IMO, it's misrepresented. The fulness of the Gentiles is the grafting in to the natural olive tree even as some of the natural branches have been broken off. In that way we stay in the context of salvation in Christ, the proper order and the how those in Christ dwell in the family and congregation of God in Jesus. The fulness of the Gentiles isn't some entity apart from Christ and the natural olive tree. I agree, some are blinded. In no way does this mean the election is apart from the seed of Abraham, in Christ. Yes. But it's not clear from scripture just what part of Israel, who it is, exactly when this happens, nor what the fulness of the Gentiles truly means. There is a lot of speculation and personal belief surrounding this, a lot of wishes and hopes, but nothing is clear beyond the fact of the occurrence. Okay. Provide the scriptural evidence, a direct statement, of two folds treated with certain distinctions. You say the first fold is the Gentile Church. Please provide scriptural evidence of the first fold, then it's definition as the Gentile Church. Your conclusion does not follow from what you posted. What I see from the verses above that lead to your conclusion is like saying: Dogs have four legs. A Labrador is a dog. Ergo, some Labradors are yellow. The conclusion does not follow from the premises.

I see where there is a vast number of people in heaven after a gathering out from within great tribulation. Perhaps you could show from scripture a like group, vast in number and as holy as the ones described in Rev 7, raptured pretribulationally. Wrong last trump. And yet anyone could join. Your 'therefore' isn't a valid conclusion from what you posted. I don't see you have demonstrated it is God's plan. It's a church plan. It's a western doctrine. That I can see.

Nah. Anyone in Christ is the seed of Abraham. That's the important idea. There is no Gentile church. Any Gentile that has come to Christ is of the seed of Abraham and adopted into the natural olive tree that is the Israel of God. The idea of two folds into one is already done. The wall of separation from our Father has been torn down by Jesus, there is no more sacrifice required, no religious conversion needed, no more division by religious affiliation or ethnicity. The only congregation that exists is the elect of God in Jesus Christ. Since Christ ascended there are two groups, those that confess Jesus is Lord and those who do not. Mankind requires segregation into groups for any number of purposes; mainly to elevate some and marginalize others. Jesus doesn't do that.

Literally any ethnicity can be a Jew. Jews come in all shapes, sizes, ethnicities, and nationalities. There are black Jews from Ethiopia, Chinese Jews from Shanghai and Indian Jews. There are Jews from Morocco and Iran, Jews from South America and Oceania. The practices and beliefs held by Jews range from those who openly identify as Orthodox and strictly observe ancient precepts to those that have nothing to do with the religion or culture. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/who-is-a-jew

Your comments on the matter was partial blindness occurs until the fulness of the Gentiles. Paul didn't make a mistake when he said 'Israel'. That's what I'm pointing out. Not that the term "Jew" doesn't appear in scripture, but that the term isn't used in the evidence cited.

Originally the appellation referred only to those of Judah, later, to the kingdom of Judah after the split, the rest of the tribes were not called yehudi. When the 10 tribes were exiled only the tribes left under the authority of Judah were known as yehudi. So in ancient times not every Israeli was a Jew. The point is, it's a practice of ritual and liturgy. And one does not need to have Israeli heritage to be a practicing Jew whether orthodox, conservative, reform or reconstructionist. One can convert to Judaism without tribal heritage. If you notice in Rev 7 the 144k come from the tribes of Israel. In Rev 14 the criteria for the special status of the 144k is from one of the 12 tribes, virgin and no lies. That would seem a good time to mention their Jewishness, if that was a factor in their redemption and position. So one can be Israeli and not be a Jew, be a Jew but not Israeli, but apparently the 144k are only of tribal heritage, virgins and not liars. The Jewish religion has nothing to do with it. And now you are calling it a religion. That's accurate. Even the Jews themselves know it's a religion. They know, depending on 'Jewishness' where one would fit in the religion, and in the nation of Israel. As you point out, it's a religion. The only people that are the people of God are those whose name in found written in the book. Will there be 'Jews'? Of course. But it wasn't Jewishness that got their name written in the book. Your reference to the people of the book is from Islam and the Quran, yes? Not convincing. In Dan 12, "But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered." The people of Daniel are those whose name is found written in the book, the book of life, not the bible. Here again, even with the long heritage of the Hebrews and Judaism ancestrally for Daniel, Jew and Judaism is not a criteria for the identity of the people of Daniel. Holding to the liturgy of ancient Hebrew ways is a slap in the face to Christ. Jesus fulfilled all and released all from the bondage of the law, religion, sin, and death. To continue to practice that which has been done away with for the purposes of reconciliation to God and redemption to eternal life is nothing more than pagan idol worship. And now it's Israel. As I said, Jew and Israel are not synonymous according to scripture. Some group claiming Jewishness for all 10 million people in the holy land does not make it so. Correct. And I say it all the time. You appeared to argue against it at first, but now find a bit of common ground. From what I can see in the scriptures, Judaism is religion and Jews it's adherents, Israel is a nation of borders; the people of God, those in Christ and of the seed of Abraham are the Israel[Jacob] of God. There are really only two ultimate destinies: our name is in the Book, or it isn't. Neither religion, heritage, ethnicity or appellation has any effect on either one.

Romans 11:25 King James Version 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Israel. Israel, Israel. Not Jews. Jew is a religion, not the people of God. The find function returns 0/0 results for 'Jew' for Romans chapter 11. Where are you getting 'Jew'?

Again, that's all religion. Religion has nothing to do with being in Christ, the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise.

That's where the doctrine is most prevalent. Yes, Israel. The Israel of God. That includes all in Christ.

Jew and Israel are not synonymous.

Quoting is not understanding. The above is not an opening to exalt a group over Israel, but rather to fear the God that blinded His own people to allow a people not His to become His. If He did that to His children to provoke them to jealousy, if He blinded His own people, you think any of us are immune to the same condition? Be humble. None are immune.

Yes, but that's been accomplished and is not an excuse to segregate. You liken this 'fold' to the white, western, dispensational, pretrib church, elevating it above Israel; never considering the fact that Gentiles are grafted into the Israel of God, not surpassing or superseding Israel.