Diaste

Well, that's a lot to throw out there all at once. I'd like to more than suggest Revelation must be taken as a whole and cannot be parceled out into stand alone sections, all while resisting a strict chronology and defying theological scholarship. There is order among the chaos but it's not readily available.

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I have heard this many times as an explanation. But you still can't provide a pretrib scene akin to Rev 7:9-14 that provides the Where? When? and Who? There is no last trump on the feast of trumps. It's a memorial of blowing trumpets. The best best you have is Talmudic tradition and that isn't close to divine truth. The only last trump in a series of trumps, so named, associated with the end of the age, Jesus return, and the gathering of the saints, is the 7th trump of Revelation. There is no other. It's amazing you actually think you know what the ancients did not know. How did you arrive at that? Did you raise them from the dead to talk to them or something? I know, you think because it wasn't spelled out or no mention made that no man that even lived before John could have ever been given any insight from the Spirit. So you decide to argue from silence as if that's tantamount to wisdom and understanding. There are many more things that Jesus did. If all of them were written down, I suppose that not even the world itself would have space for the books that would be written. Facts?! You mean evidence massaged to fit doctrine and dogma? I agree with that. Your timing here is made up. There is zero evidence... Forget it. It's been fun but I'm done here. Blessings.

I literally gave the recipe. Romans 11 is the complete instruction. Yes, but you think the 12 tribes of the 144k are Israeli nationals. They are not. They are in Christ and the seed of Abraham. No. Israel is blinded in part only. Not Jews, not national Israelis, Israel as in Jacob and the seed of Abraham. Jews, Jews, Jews. Not Jews. That's a false religion. Paul clearly says "ISRAEL". False. You'll see. Misinterpretation to fit a culture, not truth or understanding.

Ignoring the evidence. Fine. Even though Paul says this is exactly what happens, the wild branches are grafted into the natural olive tree. Ever grafted? The grafted branch becomes part of the tree to point you can't tell them apart. Ignoring the evidence, again.

This is not evidence for what you say. You assume the 144k are part of some late in the game gathering from which the white, western, pretrib, dispensational 'church' is immune and previously removed. The 144k are the first taken of the only gathering in existence executed immediately prior to God's wrath. You are consistent, but in error. All Gentiles are grafted into the Israel of God, they are not a group with their own identity, they are Israel or they are not. The point being it's not the separation/replacement. Gentiles are grafted in, not a separate entity.

Okay.

I don't think I was arguing for that in my response to @The Light. What I see is: "After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb." And: they are before the throne of God For the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd This throne exists in time and space. This is quite similar to throne in Rev 4, mentioned 10 times. So there is a clearly a throne and it has a place. I think it a disservice to the text to fail to apply context. Sure ouranos means sky, in context. Do you really think the very much physical throne of our Father is affixed to the place where birds fly? We also see the ones who conquered the beast standing here: "And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, beside which stood those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name." Of course that's a simile but it also has a physical attribute of solidity. This isn't so many noble gasses, it's a wide expanse of something solid that is clear as glass. Also, John records "Then I saw heaven standing open". This seems to imply heaven was previously closed. That means our ability to view God's abode is supernaturally limited, barred from our perceptions. John records this as wrath is imminent: "The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up,". Obviously we are not able to see past the veil of the sky, which veil obscures the abode of God and the heavenly host from our view. Just because we aren't given every detail, scripture has more gaps and unknowns than bridges and knowns, doesn't mean we can simply throw away a cautious approach and plunge forward speculating. And please refrain from this sort of rebuttal: "If one believes that He "abides" anywhere, then he or she has too small a view of God!" I was in a cult in my younger days and similar statements were always the club used to beat one back into line. Possibly I do have 'too small a view' but using statements that play on emotion or introduce a perceived lack is coercion, not discussion.

By mankind, yes. My point is that Jews are a religion and they are not Israel. Israel the nation of borders is also not the Israel of God. Paul is speaking about the Israel of God in Romans 11. The Israel of God failed in it's search but the elect did not, that elect is not prejudicial. Israel failed the elect did not, the rest were hardened. "What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened," The 'others were hardened'? This implies the elect were originally of Israel since the 'others' are of Israel, that means some of Israel are the elect. This idea supports the overarching concept of the elect being those in Christ, of the seed of Abraham and their origins from Israel. I don't need it simplified or clarified. I was pointing out the fact Jews have nothing to do with it. Jew is a religion, man made, man defined, man supported and has nothing to do with the Israel of God.

Please provide chapter and verse of this cause and effect. And where is the scriptural evidence? That word you keep using, blindness, is a hardening of the heart. It's only used 3 time in the NT: Mark 3, Romans 11 and Ephesians 4. I looked at all 3 just now. Mark and Ephesians do not shed light on the conclusory statements above. Romans 11 is better at defining the effects of the hardening and it's purpose but does not assist in rendering your conclusions valid. The hardening serves a clear purpose: I ask then, did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery?f Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! 13I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch; if the root is holy, so are the branches. It's also not the dire prediction you would have others believe. Hear what Paul says about that: "Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!" The trouble here is one of belief, not an undefined moment of 'fullness of the Gentiles', as though the fulness of the Gentiles is an elevated position above the natural branches: Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly notg spare you either. I'm thinking you may have inadvertently missed Paul's full exposition of the concepts in Romans 11. No matter. It happens.

One aspect upon which you hang your hopes ignoring the full landscape. A prime example of this is the next paragraph which must have been an accidental oversight on your part: "People sometimes ask how King David could be a Jew given that one of his female ancestors, Ruth, was not a Jew. However, Ruth converted to Judaism before marrying Boaz and bearing Obed. (In Ruth 1:16 she states her intention to convert.) After she converted, Ruth was Jewish, and her children born after the conversion were Jewish as well. Even so, Ruth is David’s paternal ancestor, so Ruth’s Jewish identity or lack thereof would not impact King David’s status as a Jew because King David’s Jewish status is determined matrilineally." As I said, anyone, from anywhere, can be a Jew, as stated at the beginning of the article you quoted. The fact that you missed it must have been another unintentional oversight. Here it is again: Jews come in all shapes, sizes, ethnicities, and nationalities. There are black Jews from Ethiopia, Chinese Jews from Shanghai and Indian Jews. There are Jews from Morocco and Iran, Jews from South America and Oceania. The practices and beliefs held by Jews range from those who openly identify as Orthodox and strictly observe ancient precepts to those that have nothing to do with the religion or culture.

Not at all. IMO, it's misrepresented. The fulness of the Gentiles is the grafting in to the natural olive tree even as some of the natural branches have been broken off. In that way we stay in the context of salvation in Christ, the proper order and the how those in Christ dwell in the family and congregation of God in Jesus. The fulness of the Gentiles isn't some entity apart from Christ and the natural olive tree. I agree, some are blinded. In no way does this mean the election is apart from the seed of Abraham, in Christ. Yes. But it's not clear from scripture just what part of Israel, who it is, exactly when this happens, nor what the fulness of the Gentiles truly means. There is a lot of speculation and personal belief surrounding this, a lot of wishes and hopes, but nothing is clear beyond the fact of the occurrence. Okay. Provide the scriptural evidence, a direct statement, of two folds treated with certain distinctions. You say the first fold is the Gentile Church. Please provide scriptural evidence of the first fold, then it's definition as the Gentile Church. Your conclusion does not follow from what you posted. What I see from the verses above that lead to your conclusion is like saying: Dogs have four legs. A Labrador is a dog. Ergo, some Labradors are yellow. The conclusion does not follow from the premises.

I see where there is a vast number of people in heaven after a gathering out from within great tribulation. Perhaps you could show from scripture a like group, vast in number and as holy as the ones described in Rev 7, raptured pretribulationally. Wrong last trump. And yet anyone could join. Your 'therefore' isn't a valid conclusion from what you posted. I don't see you have demonstrated it is God's plan. It's a church plan. It's a western doctrine. That I can see.

Nah. Anyone in Christ is the seed of Abraham. That's the important idea. There is no Gentile church. Any Gentile that has come to Christ is of the seed of Abraham and adopted into the natural olive tree that is the Israel of God. The idea of two folds into one is already done. The wall of separation from our Father has been torn down by Jesus, there is no more sacrifice required, no religious conversion needed, no more division by religious affiliation or ethnicity. The only congregation that exists is the elect of God in Jesus Christ. Since Christ ascended there are two groups, those that confess Jesus is Lord and those who do not. Mankind requires segregation into groups for any number of purposes; mainly to elevate some and marginalize others. Jesus doesn't do that.

Literally any ethnicity can be a Jew. Jews come in all shapes, sizes, ethnicities, and nationalities. There are black Jews from Ethiopia, Chinese Jews from Shanghai and Indian Jews. There are Jews from Morocco and Iran, Jews from South America and Oceania. The practices and beliefs held by Jews range from those who openly identify as Orthodox and strictly observe ancient precepts to those that have nothing to do with the religion or culture. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/who-is-a-jew