Mike 2

I hear you I think that God, in His genius, has made it very simple for everyone when it comes to salvation but we take our theology and cloud that simplicity. Maybe that is a topic for another thread......How simple is salvation? I think it has already been expressed in this thread that there is a difference between salvation and sanctification. Accepting salvation, then working it out are two different things. One doesn't require any theology.

what she said

I think to question if someone is a Christian, or even question them if they are saved is valid. James does it in a round about way in Jam 2:14-26 by telling people to look at what they say they believe compared to what they do. I agree with what you have said in red above but we have to ask the question of salvation based on actions or lack of. A lot of people believe they are Christians (Limey Bob kinda stressed that point) but don't really have faith.... ....all the way back to Lady Kays O.P. ... We're to help our brothers and sisters out....and we are to be the beautiful feet that carry the good news How do we decide which is which?

notsolostsoul you happened to bring this up this time but it is something I see often. I am sure that most people stop reading that passage before verse 5 or figure they already have an understanding and don't let verse 5 sink in. (like Joh 3:16...no one seems to read vs 18's huge meaning) I think most may be misunderstanding this passage. Please see my hi-lights above. It is saying that you CAN judge someone else but you cannot be effective in discernment, rebuking and correction if you yourself are doing the same or worse. This whole passage including "judge not...lest you be judged" (what about vs 2?) is so often taken to mean the wrong thing. IT DOES NOT MEAN DON'T JUDGE Yes I put it in caps because I want to shout it out. It does say that we need to be aware that if we are going to make a judgment call with the intention of making a correction; we had better be in a position where we won't hear someone say 'Well, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black"....practice what you preach. There is a real danger of doing a disservice to our Lord if we aren't walking the talk! A very good biblical example of this is Paul addressing Peters hypocrisy in Galatians: Gal 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly wrong. Paul made a judgement call based on Peter's (Cephas) behavior. The important thing to remember is that Paul made that call from a position where he was not doing the same thing as Peter and Paul's intention was not to put Peter down but to help him grow and ultimately, better spread the gospel. When I run into someone claiming to be a Christian but not acting like one I wonder why that is and I start asking questions.... What do you mean by "Christian"...what is a Christian? How long have you been a Christian? If someone claiming to be Christian is not acting like one, we have to help them along. That's Paul's advice. 2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good action. If they claim to be a Christian but it sure appears that they are not, I feel obliged on behalf of my Lord to point them towards the truth. Learning to ask the right questions that will "put a pebble in their sandals" is often the most effective and gentle way to do that. For sure one thing we are not able to judge is a persons final destination....only the Lord knows a persons soul. Lady Kay's title "We are Told Not to Question Someones Faith" seems like a cliche phrase....has anyone bothered to check if that's a biblical truth? Or is it a spin on another man made cliche..."we aren't supposed to judge others".... taken from Mat: 7? I think if Lady Kay (or any of us for that matter) were to believe that cliche she may miss out on an opportunity to help steer someone closer to God.

Something I learned sometime ago is that, particularly when it comes to the gay debate, Christians seem to take the stance that a gay person cannot become a Christian unless they stop being gay and gay people think they cannot become a Christian unless somehow the idea of homosexuality as being sin is removed from the bible. Both parties forget or don't realize that heaven to this day is full of sinners that are only there because of the righteousness of Jesus. AND....Christians continue to be sinners. Sin whether stealing, telling a lie, murdering or homosexuality has been removed once, for all by Christ at the cross. The forgiveness has already been done, nothing has to change before you can accept it. I don't have to change anything first to accept that forgiveness!!! I just have to accept that I need forgiveness. In a true believer the Holy Spirit effects spiritual truth and change. I have learned to focus on the forgiveness that we have been given and how it is available to us despite the sin we are caught up in.....no matter what that is. We too easily get sucked into the homosexuality merry go round and whether it is natural, un natural, etc. When that happens we completely miss the message of forgiveness. Keep in mind that homosexuality is not the only sin in a gay persons life, its just the obvious one. We need to focus on the fact that sin is forgiven and bring to the fore that we sin in many ways. With gay people we need to get off the merry go round and talk about sin in general and the forgiveness of it ONCE for ALL. Bottom line is, I was a sinner when I was saved Ah shucks, ....I may as well admit it....geee, I continue to sin. How about you?

Reading "Just Walk Across the Room" by Bill Hybels. Just finished John and starting Luke

If we keep that in mind.....it sure takes a load off our shoulders

Yea really How many people, ourselves included at one point, do not understand the spiritual aspect of Jesus. If we understand that people can't understand it without the Holy Spirit we learn to talk to them about the things of God in a different way so that we may teach them.

There is great meaning in this verse along with what Jesus, the Son of God says in Joh 5:19 Jesus told them, "Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, the Son can do nothing on his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing, What the Father does, the Son does likewise. Joh 5:20 The Father loves the Son and shows him everything he is doing, and he will show him even greater actions than these, so that you may be amazed. How is it that the Son (Jesus) "sees" what the Father does? 1 Corinthians 2:11-14 in the above quote gives us a clear indication. It is through the Holy Spirit that knows the things of God. Without the Holy Spirit we cannot know the things (Father) of God. Like a son comes out from the father physically it happens the same way spiritually. Spiritual truth and direction come out of the Father and are revealed by the Holy Spirit to the Son, most well known to us in that of Jesus. (waaaait for it.....) As verse 14 above states someone that has not accepted what the Christ has done, and therefore has not received the Holy Spirit, cannot work as Jesus did because they cannot know (see) what the Father does (desires). They remain natural and are not sons of, children of, God, because they do not have Gods Holy Spirit in them. When we receive the Holy Spirit, we become sons of God (gender does not apply here) and we can then do Gods will on earth as it is in heaven. We are all God's creation but we are not all God's spiritual children.

Judas....you made my day posting that!!!! I have already shared it with my home church group. Thanks I should add...context, context, context

You pose an interesting and popular question. The bible tells us how we can be guaranteed salvation Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. And Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "The message is near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart." This is the message about faith that we are proclaiming: Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. But that doesn't explain the person on the desert isle or in the middle of the jungle that has never heard the name of Jesus. The bible also tells us Php 2:10 that at the name of Jesus "every knee should bow," of heavenly ones, and earthly ones, and ones under the earth, Php 2:11 and "every tongue should confess" that Jesus Christ is "Lord," to the glory of God the Father. I have heard it discussed that no one knows when that opportunity can come, only now ....or even later, but God knows the heart of all when it does happen.

In regards to this and how it pertains to biblical teaching I think you will help yourself and those of us reading with our learning if you refer to where in the bible you have read some of the things you are writing about. Otherwise it will be something like "well so and so said...." It's easy to repeat something we have heard, believing it to be factual only to look it up and find out it is actually far from true. This happens a lot when people talk about the bible. I'm not suggesting you are doing that, but it would be a lot easier for me if you were to refer to where you got your information. Doing that helps us all understand how we come to our conclusions and whether they are informed or not. Blessings, mike2

So when they tell the stories will it be a narrative by the actor just sitting there, or will the light fade out to another scene and then the story be performed?

I would pretty much ditto kwikphilly and add that if you look at the way the bible talks about slaves, the laws are written in a way that dictates treating them way better than the way the surrounding nations did. Many of the things in the Old Testament that seem primitive compared to our standards of today were actually counter-cultural at that time and even progressive.

What about if he is asked to give a beef brisket to the robed man with the holy spirit. Would that be like if he is asked to give a beef brisket to the robed man with Bob? In that case Bob is clearly someone with the robed man. However, if he is asked to give a beef brisket to the robed man with the Bob, is he no longer referring to someone but something? This is why I am concerned about that one little word, a word that is used consistently throughout the bible. Its use seems to give meaning.

This is in our lunch room

Recently I have had this awareness of groups of people referring to the Holy Spirit as just Holy Spirit. It discomforts me, I don't know why, maybe it's because I don't see just plain Holy Spirit being referred to in the bible. It is always preceded by "the" or "His". Plus it seems that taking "the" away changes the intended meaning to something else. We don't see "the Jesus", just Jesus. Adding "the" changes the meaning of Jesus. Removing it also changes the meaning. Anybody else get that feeling? Is referring to "the Holy Spirit" as just "Holy Spirit" biblical?

I have to go along with woundeddog and add to it because the heavy load Jesus was talking about can still happen today even in a church. At that time the Jews were trying to follow the Law that was handed to them by God through Moses. They are commonly known as the 10 commandments although there were actually about 600 of them. They covered a lot of different things from how people behaved, how things were done in the temple to healthy eating. What happened was that the religious leaders of the time had come up with over 30,000 additional laws to enforce the original ones..... rather daunting. In fact the load of knowing that was so great that only well educated people could possibly understand it. It resulted in the majority of people feeling it was hopeless to try and come into a relationship with God. As woundeddog said, Jesus, on behalf of God, ushered in a new covenant that did away with the need to follow the Law as a way to approach God. We now approach God through accepting a way to Him through the work of Jesus on the cross and nothing else. Jesus ushered in a new Law (covenant) that basically says.....love one another. There's more to it than that, there is a yoke that we see Jesus demonstrate in his own life but the core is simply love one another. I've heard of church's saying that vanilla cakes can not be brought into a church because there is alcohol in the vanilla...part of the yoke of a religious rule that alcohol is not to be consumed....and alcohol is not to be consumed because it may lead to drunkenness and drunkenness will lead to......!? That's a yoke that I think our wine drinking Lord would probably say is adding weight. Always look at church rules through the lens of the love that Jesus demonstrates.

LPTSTR, You can't give what you don't have... Ever consider that you don't have a life to give......

So we are doing a series at church looking at the history of the Anabaptist church. Simply put, Anabaptist's believe that as adults we should be making an outward statement of our faith by being baptized as an adult when we can make the decision on our own behalf to follow Christ. The persecution that was met as a result of the early Anabaptist's taking that stance was incredible. No doubt there was a political component regarding a small group of people not following the standard of the leaders. But ultimately the opposition to a public declaration to follow Jesus as an adult has to be attributed to Satan's opposition. There are a few verses I am considering while also thinking about this persecution 1) Jesus' words when being baptized in Mat 3:15 But Jesus answered him, "Let it be this way for now, because this is the proper way for us to fulfill all righteousness."At this, he permitted him to be baptized. Why would Jesus say that? 2) Jesus' last words in Mat 28 to go and baptize. Why would he deem baptism so important as to be a part of his last words? Is there a correlation between our being baptized and the success/ failure of the ability to minister/ witness that James talks about in Jas 2? Why would Jesus be firm about setting that example and the devil be so aggressive trying to stop it? Could it be that some thing as simple as baptism could be our gateway to doing Gods will on earth as it is in heaven?

I don't think you are going to find one person here that is going to affirm you for divorcing someone based on what you are saying, particularly as you are a Christian. I think you really need to pray and reflect on the verses in 1 Cor 13. No matter who you marry sooner or later the survival of that marriage is going to require that you have to put the effort into practicing those principals. The lust will fade away and reappears from time to time. Just may have faded away faster in your case. But the love, the love as practiced in those principals is truly a blessing and takes time to develope. I think you owe it to her, yourself and God to put an effort into honoring the commitment you made. Never underestimate what God will do if you take his advice! It may very well be that he's cooking something up as a result of this relationship that you never dreamed of. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that if you both put those principles into practice you will see the wonderful person you married....even when you don't like them very much. Our God is a forgiving God and even though he extends his grace and mercy to us, we still have to accept that that has been done. If you decide to leave this relationship, it would be good for you to first take time to pray and consider if you really can accept that or if it will be the proverbial albatross around your neck. That's my 2 cents worth, coming from 30 years of marriage (May 30) Mike2 All the best Mike 2

Our pastor has Lev 19:28 tattooed on the inside of his forearm Every time he holds his arm out it is visible. I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand he has put it on his arm to start a conversation about how we are not under the law any more. It is intended to lead a discussion ultimately to "we are forgiven" I get what he is getting at and he is using that as one of his tools to create an opportunity to share the gospel. He has a conversation all ready to move that along and it works well ..............for him. On the other hand I read how Paul describes in both his letter to the Romans and the Corinthians about how we are no longer under the law and that if we want to eat meat offered to idols go ahead because it is only food and we have a strong enough faith to realize that. Our pastor having that tattoo gets that, but here is the rub for me.....Paul in his letters also says that not all of us have a strong enough faith to realize that the food is only food and not sinning by taking part in offering sacrifice to false gods. But because there is a chance Paul may lead someone who doesn't understand that astray, due to their weaker faith....he won't eat it. He doesn't want to take the chance......Our pastor has an explanation down pat, but what about those in the congregation that have to explain to others or even understand why he is "breaking the law".What about those that simply think "hey the pastors breaking the rule so I can too"..... I think the pastor, by his actions and inability to explain to everyone that sees his tattoo, particularly from afar, is confusing some people and possibly inadvertently leading some people, in their own hearts, into sin. I have to agree with the post that asks "why the tattoo?" I don't have one because I'm of the opinion that it is to draw attention to oneself. It's almost always....even to great fan fare "revealed". Still ......some of it is real cool and I have often started a conversation by asking someone about their tattoo.

I am looking at this much later, I don't mean to belabor a point but I should try to clarify myself. First I want to make it clear that I am not saying the Father changed into the Son. This is what I mean when I say we have to be specific when we are talking about Jesus and what aspect of him we are referring to..the Messiah?, the Son of God?, Jesus the body? In the above quote it appears that you have referred to "Jesus" in 2 different ways, one spiritually and the other physically. If we are not specific in our understanding of these it can be confusing when trying to understand Jesus in light of the Trinity. What I am saying is that the Father decided to become incarnate, become physical. If I write Father, Holy Spirit and Son on a piece of paper, draw a circle around them then label the circle "GOD" that would show me that the name of the three of them together is God. God is made up of the 3 of them. God IS NOT some 4th thing. I think that's where people get confused. God is made up of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All things come from the Father through the Holy Spirit, through the Son who brings it into the physical. Jesus saying the Son does nothing without first seeing the Father doing it (through the Holy Spirit) makes this clear. When we see the Son as we do in Jesus we see all 3 in 1, we see God. The God we see in the Old Testament was also all 3 working together but manifest in the physical in a different way. God interacting in the physical is all 3 working together. In the O.T. we just see the manifestation in the physical (the Word) in different ways. In the N.T. it so happens "the Word became flesh." When we think of the Son of God we should not limit our thoughts to how the Son of God appears in the form of the body of Jesus. I cannot experience the Father without the Holy Spirit. In that sense I am experiencing God at work spiritually, the reality is that I am experiencing a direct, spiritual relationship with the Father. We come to call that a "God" experience but it is the Father I am relating with through the Holy Spirit. I cannot experience the Father in the physical without the Holy Spirit and the Son (that part that interacts with the physical). When that physical interaction happens with us ....we call that a "God" experience as well and again it is the Father I am relating to through the physical manner he has chosen , still through the Son who sees it through the Holy Spirit. That's why we are called "Sons" of God....his Holy Spirit can now work through us into the physical, our spirit sees what to do through the Spirit of God. In the bible the make up of God was not fully understood (some might argue revealed) until the New Testament, but it was always the Father working through the Holy Spirit directly into a mans spirit or , through the Holy Spirit, through the Son into the physical, then, as he perceives it, into a mans spirit. Think of Moses and the burning bush. That would be identified as "God" at work. In reality, it was the Fathers will on earth as it is in heaven. So it is possible that Moses and the other 72 saw "God", but what they would have seen if it was physical would have been that part of God (of the trinity) that interacts in the physical.....the Word / Son becoming..... visible. It would have been the Son doing the Fathers will. I don't know if I have explained my thinking but if you understand what I am saying here you can understand how I can say; "The Father, before time had the plan to become incarnate as Jesus "the Christ" when the timing was perfect."

Bob the best fishing hole is where they are looking for food. Sounds like you may be challenging the "theologians" rather than teaching the seekers. Our Lord didn't have much luck with them either (at least the biggies). I heard a preacher say "if you can't pick the fruit, don't bruise it". Skip that topic with the ones that aren't ready to hear it and talk to those that are. I find the best way to relate to the Trinity is to explain how we are made in the image of God. We have our own deep thoughts, we have our spirit and we have that part of us that interacts with the physical (1 Cor. 2:9-14). With that understanding, it is a lot easier to grasp the Trinity and how it easily has the biggest influence in our lives. An additional benefit of understanding that is being able to grasp how and why we mess up and sin, ever try to understand what the heck Paul is saying in Romans 7:13-24. I think you should get back in the boat and row on over to a fishing hole somewhere....doesn't matter where....plenty of fish. Sounds like you have challenging times....hope you find tons of joy in letting the Spirit lead you when you drop anchor.

I think there can be even more clarity when we consider the context of this verse. James is basically saying that talk is cheap. We all see people posting here that they "believe" in Jesus (God). That is fine and well if you "have" Jesus (God). We "have" Jesus (God) when we allow His Spirit into us and then as our Savior and LORD we turn to His Spirit in our thinking process (our spirit) for his guidance in the things we do . That's how we (and others) can gauge if we just believe Jesus is real or actually have true faith, faith in his guidance and are trying to follow his lead. When we do .....we see that evidence in the works we do because we are doing what Jesus does.....the Fathers will on earth as it is in heaven. James is saying if you're talking a lot about believing in Jesus but can't look back on your life and see a change in the selfless things you do, you just have a belief there is a Jesus (God) but no faith in him. If you're not seeing a change in the way you live your life you better be concerned about what it is you believe. Jas 2:19 You believe that there is one God. That's fine! Even the demons believe that and tremble with fear. The demons aren't saved and they believe in Jesus (God). Thing is......He's not the Lord they turn to for guidance. Here's another good gauge; Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Gal 5:23 gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things. These will be evident and increasing in faithful works. It happens when you have faith / trust in the Lord. I'm not saying that if you aren't producing any good works you aren't saved. That could happen But I am pretty sure James is saying you better be thinking about what it is you do believe if you're not. Lots of good stuff in this thread. blessings Mike2 PS someone earlier mentioned that sometimes they wondered whether doing the works was worth it. We don't do these works with the thoughts of any benefit to ourselves, it is ALWAYS for the benefit of others. We do these things for the glory of God...is it worth it? I hope when I step into the next life I start bumping into a whole wack of people saying...'hey remember that thing you did that you thought was worthless, well.....' Who knows what God can do for others through us.