Jostler

If they're taken alive, at what point do they die? None of us will escape this "appointment"

I failed to say so but the specific truth i meant was 'saved by grace, through faith'. The Papacy had all but replaced that with a works based theology when Martin Luther was set in motion. There was a good bit more but in my mind that was the most immediate and the most critical at the time.

I will yield and agree to disagree. I don't see much point in continuing from here.

Martin Luther with all his flaws, was used by God to restore awareness of a truth the Catholic hierarchy had nearly stamped out. Every move of God is resisted by satan and his minions and suffers from the flaws of the messengers. But He is able to finish perfect work with imperfect tools.

I don't mean to poo-pooh the idea of God using the moon to signify and point to prophetic events. But Israel follows a lunar calendar which means that the first of every month is a new moon, which is the only time a solar eclipse can manifest astronomically. Many Jewish feasts begin on the first of the month so many feasts will coincide with new moons regardless of whether they're signs or not. Because full moons always occur in the middle of the month, another set of Jewish feasts will always be occurring during the only time lunar eclipses can happen astronomically. It's quite natural for there to be a high level of coincidence between Jewish feasts and lunar events. I know God DOES set signs in the sun, moon and stars because He said He would and even mentioned that they were for 'signs' at creation. But we need some discernment to separate what events are signs and which are just normal astronomical motions.

I've used up all my "thumbs up" for the day evidently...so...just.....AMEN!

hahaha! Boy you jumped straight into the deep end I dearly love that book now but I couldn't make heads or tails of it for years. I could never recommend it as a start point but that doesn't mean HE never would. Fact is it truly is the Teacher who knows exactly where to start each of us individually. His choice will always be best and tailored to the personality, call, and circumstance of each individual. That's the beauty of having God Himself as your personal tutor. He has a tailor made curriculum perfectly matched to each individual student

I have come to about the same place. I'm describing myself as a "follower of Jesus" more and more these days because even "Christian" has become so confused, meaning so many different things to different people I can never be certain what the person is "hearing" when I say Christian. Accepting a denominational label went out the window years ago.

I don't think any man or group of men is capable of doing anything to bring unity to the Body. And thank God I don't need to. Our unity (and John 17 is a literally breathtaking view of it) is IN HIM. All I have to do or CAN do is present myself to His presence and let Him manifest my "oneness" with HIM. When He gets that where it needs to be, I in Him and you in Him, "our" oneness is already a done deal. Trying to get "us" to manifest oneness in the Body is just an exercise in the flesh, and will produce nothing good. I am commanded to love, seek peace with and serve you, but that's not unity ...oneness. It might help a lot of things but manifesting unity is something only He can do. Focus on Him. He'll take care of the rest.

I'd throw my vote behind the Gospel of John as many have already That's as good a starting place as any I know of. There is another option for the daring Get yourself in a quiet place and ask Him where to start. Then listen, as long as it takes to hear His answer. The quicker you realize and believe that He is THE Teacher and available to you to explain everything you're about to read, the quicker that living Word will begin to blossom in your understanding. Not to mention just the incredible experience of His presence....

all of this intellectual arguing about topics like this is going to disappear soon as wholly irrelevant. We're going to one day be thrust into circumstances where our very survival will depend on hearing His DAILY instructions to us personally and instantly obeying them. How can I possibly stand in judgement of a man HE told to run for office? Told NOT to run for office? I have my hands full just discerning what He is telling me to do and overcoming the fleshy temptations to delay or disobey. When we get to a point that each of us is capable of receiving and faithfully acting on daily instructions from the King Himself, we'll find our efforts neatly dovetailing and tremendous power flowing through His Body. And we won't need some authority figure to tell us what to do. There will be ONE Conductor for one amazing global orchestra. I am personally convinced that is what we should be seeking right now, and in fact I think its quite urgent that we do so. I am not responsible for any unity in the Church, He is. I am responsible for whether or not I am making myself available to Him to manifest my unity with Him. He will take care of the rest of John 17. And when He does it will indeed be glorious

I might have come at this from a different angle, but the message is the same if less eloquently expressed than the above. As I endeavored to put feet to that exhortation, I discovered that there is a "knowing" of God that can only be had in stillness. And I have never been able to truly be still without first isolating myself in solitude. Undistracted, One on one time with Him is not optional for the one who wishes to know Him. And those who engage this find great reward. Thanks for sharing. That's a beautifully rendered expression of that truth.

DEAD MEN CAN'T SIN! lol...I KNOW IT....I have intellectually apprehended it, but I still fall in and out of BELIEVING it in my HEART where it counts. This IS the "work" we've been assigned...to BELIEVE! This truth that we DIED with Him is so fundamental and so strongly resisted by our carnal minds I do believe its worthy of a LOT of our attention and effort applied to just believing. thanks for the reminder once more brother....i needed it. again....

I thought I stuck pretty close to what the text actually says. Let me look at that again. Looking at the Word itself, I AM assuming the word "saint" is used to mean exactly what it means in every other place it's used in the NT. Born-again, by the power of the Holy Spirit who then indwells the believer. As far as assumptions go that seems a very safe one to me. The power to overcome these saints is GRANTED. Who can grant such power but Father? We need an understanding of how our Father who is love could grant such a writ of authority to the beast (and i assert that such an explanation DOES exist and makes perfect sense). Every tribe, tongue and nation is mentioned so we're not just hearing about the 144,000 or Israelites or Jews exclusively. And then I'd have to ask why those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life as an exception (the only ones who DO NOT worship the beast) unless there are some present to reject that demand for worship. It seems to speak pretty clearly and what you are identifying as my "assumptions" still seem very well grounded in the Word as far as I can see. Lets look at your next assertion by actually reviewing Dan 12. I'm trying to make sure we don't get lost in the pile of things before us so I'm stepping through your post one bit at a time. I highlighted in green (Jesus) because I have a question there. Why do you say this is Jesus speaking to Daniel? That's an 'assumption' I need some evidence for. If I'm understanding the context of this encounter properly (and we have to back all the way up to Chapter 10 to find where this encounter starts) this is an angelic messenger who identifies himself in ways that don't seem to fit Jesus Himself. We've got quite a few instances in the OT where we DO see what appears to be pre-incarnate manifestations of Jesus but I don't think this is one of them. Back at the beginning of the encounter this heavenly being testifies that he was sent (my assumption is that Father sent him) to bring a response to Daniel's petition for understanding. And we're given a description of this heavenly messenger. There are some similarities in this description that coincide with a description of Jesus found in Rev 1, BUT...the following verses seem to describe circumstances that COULDN'T fit Jesus. The angel witnesses that he was withstood by a principality. Actually HINDERED in his mission for three whole weeks? I am doubtful any principality can hinder Jesus from doing anything. I suppose these statements I will make next are debatable, but 1. The messenger was "sent" and sent as a response to Daniel's prayer 2. The messenger did not possess sufficient strength to "break through" the resistance of a principality by himself. 3. Evidently Michael is dispatched to assist him in completing his commission to deliver understanding to Daniel. And with Michael's entrance the resistance is overcome. If we're to interpret this being as being Jesus Himself, then we're setting up a situation where Jesus needed Michael's help to get the job done. Now personally i find that a fantastic assumption....unbelieveable in the extreme. This is probably enough for one post. But I want to stick to looking at your post until you're satisfied I'm not just glossing it over and refusing to address it.

Have you ever read Foxes' Book of Martyrs? How about the 100 million or so killed by inquisitions in the middle ages? Church history is full of examples of spirit filled believers choosing death over denial of their Saviour. And many died singing praises to God even as the lions were ripping them limb from limb in the Collosseum. One was cracking jokes as he was slow-roasted on a big iron plate over a slow fire. How can you be a saint at all without the indwelling Spirit? He's the agent, the power of the new birth and I see nowhere in scripture you can become a part of God's family apart from the new birth. Saying or implying there is some way to reconciliation with God apart from the blood and new birth is just an astonishing position to take in my mind. If there were some big shift in how men are translated out of the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of "His dear son..." I would fully expect the Bible to speak to it in great detail. My goodness there is no topic of greater importance to any man than that! I'm not aware of ANY allusion, hint or intimation of that anywhere in the Bible, much less a detailed explanation. Are you? If you are please show me. That would certainly be a significant revelation.

I'll see if i can locate it I know Jesus is coming back and I think we're in the season and approaching the end of an age, but the end of the world is a LONG way off yet I might enjoy the video in any case I am really second guessing having posted it at all. I hope I didn't derail the intent of your thread.

I found a song by that name, is that what you're referring to?

Heybro I can testify to a sense of urgency (that's how I'd describe it) over the past year or so and to be honest it seems heightened in just the past few days. I've learnt from the past this is the Lord, not necessarily giving me a sense that something is about to happen, but that He needs me moving, NOW, if I'm to be prepared for what is coming...however long that turns out to be in days or weeks or months or years. I don't know how much time we have before events begin to escalate but I believe however much there is there is none we can afford to waste. As a soldier most of my adult life I have kept abreast of military developments and this world stands on the brink of war. As an investor/day trader for my second career I've kept abreast of market/monetary/economic issues pretty thoroughly and this global economic system is in the process of being destroyed. On purpose, by design, by powerful, malevolent people. I don't think the collapse of the global economic and monetary structure is far off. The public celebration of immorality of all kinds, sexual perversion, murder, blood drinking, cannibalism and so much more has reached a breathtaking fever pitch and seems to be ratcheting even higher by the day. The United States government is now fully under the control of a shadow system of unelected minions wholly unaccountable to the American people. We are a republic in name only now. I won't go into detail but I am fully convinced the Lord has spoken to my heart about impending judgement of this nation. I truly believe it is at the door. I think it likely Russia will be removed from global significance about the same time the US is. None of this makes me fearful. It will fall as judgement on the ungodly and discipline on those of His house who have lived unruly, but He will pull a harvest from this and that is the part that excites me. I think even though I'm expecting it it will still be a shocking change in some ways. These coming events will not impact every area the same way or to the same degree but life as we know it will change for almost everyone in a very short period of time if my understanding is even close to accurate. He's given me some very specific things to do to be ready, which I usually don't share on a lot because not everyone is given the same tasks. One thing He's hammered home to me over and over is that our "ark" that will get us through this flood is OBEDIENCE. He brought that lesson out of Noah's story for during the season He was correcting my understanding of our relationship to the tribulation period. (I do not think the Great Tribulation is what's next, but a VERY significant "birth pang") I've had a few very pointed encounters with Him in my life and one of them had to do with Him showing me a perspective on Noah's story I had never considered. As a dyed in the wool pre-tribber I had taught that Noah's story was a type of the pre-trib rapture in which Noah and his family escaped the time of God's wrath, being "lifted up" above it. A type of the rapture. After all the Word does say we're not appointed unto wrath, and we're not. Wrath is for those who hate God, never for the children. Discipline, yes. Wrath, no. All sounded good until He intervened and invaded my study time one evening with a spoken question. "Dale? Did Noah escape the flood?" My answer was instant and confident. "Of course he did!" To which He responded, somewhat forcefully "No he did not. Noah escaped the EFFECTS of the flood in a place of comfort and provision, prepared for him by his own obedience to My Word" Since that day He has clarified my thinking about the rapture ( I really dislike that word now, much preferring "resurrection") but from THAT moment the unspoken, undeniable subtext was that He had just shown me exactly how His people will thrive in the coming wrath. It is not for us, and we do not have to be touched by it, if we will just obey. I'm really not sure why I just rattled all that off. I guess we'll see where He takes it.

post deleted after I realized it was too close to derailing a beautiful thread.

That's a really tough passage to swallow for some, but it's hard to deny black and white. Not only are there saints present for satan to "make war" against, but somehow God's love and ultimate plan allows for them to be overcome. I asked Him how to reconcile that passage with the fact He is love and He has answered me. It's an AMAZING revelation and part of (only part) is found in Amos 3 (particularly verse 7) and Psalm 149. My WHOLE understanding of the tribulation, the wrath and our role in all of it was completely transformed when He integrated those parts of the Word into my big picture. It's removed any trace of fear of the tribulation and replaced it with an eagerness to get on with it! Even so Lord Jesus, come quickly! Hallelujah! I wouldn't miss this for ownership of the world

I appreciate your insight and fully agree. It appears you have been given an ability to cut through clutter and focus on the fundamental issues. I think that is going to be a powerfully effective tool very soon when events tenderize hearts and inspire quests for truth more intense than we typically see right now. I do think it's coming, and probably pretty soon.

false dichotomies are one of the most powerfully deceptive tools the devil has in his arsenal and we should be very aware of that. He'll take a subject and frame it up in such a way that BOTH viewpoints deny God's Word and then get us fussing over those while he laughs behind his hand. The Word cuts through all that and we need to be familiar with it so we can quickly see the false constructs and reorient the topic to God's way of seeing things. Just as Pastor Who did in the above post. Just a quick example is seeing people accept that there is "white" or good witchcraft and black magic....etc. God forbade ALL witchcraft and this is not so much an issue with Christians (I'm pretty sure most Christians still view any form of witchcraft as forbidden) but it's a pretty good example of a layer of deception that appeals to the mind and serves to obscure the truth of God's Word from people who don't know Him yet. I live in an area FULL of covens and little shops that sell all kinds of very, very strange ingredients and talismans for spell casting. Magic and witchcraft have a huge following in this area. Beware the false dichotomy

I am quite sure God is well able to protect and care for His own. But, thinking of Jeremiah, when God judged Israel his life definitely was affected by the turmoil of war, and eventual captivity. I don't see how we can escape being affected when every aspect of the society we live in is subject to upheaval. But none of that will prevent God from caring for and protecting His own. In fact, I expect those to be kept quite busy harvesting...

I've dug into this topic very deeply and I can't find a single word of what you said at fault. It's controversial because generations of selfish, fleshy men have twisted the truth to justify tyranny in the home but none of that changes the Word or His divine order in the home. There are men and women both who could benefit from a deeper understanding of what authority is in GOD'S economy because it's much, much different than worldly expressions of it.