wingnut-

Hey Moli, first off, welcome to worthy Communication is crucial to any successful relationship. Based on what you are telling us, I think it is in your best interest to get out now. It does not sound like a healthy relationship with a bright future to me. If a man loves a woman, commitment should not be an issue, the hesitancy to me is a red flag. Talking about his ex and their child and the three of them spending time together is a red flag as well. Saying that the thought of marrying you makes him nauseous is definitely a red flag. Lots of red flags waving around here to me, I think you already see them as well. God bless

Eternal life is a promise, and it is not contingent on death according to scripture. John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Now in this verse, Jesus specifically says the believer HAS eternal life. He also goes on to say that a believer HAS passed from death to life. Already granted, and He expands on that in the very next verse. John 5:25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. No waiting, that is what He is telling us. Life is in Him, not by works, but by faith. This is what being born again is all about, it isn't something that is put off to the future. Rewards are a whole different ball of wax. When Christ rose from the grave, He came out with the keys to death and Hades. Revelation 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, 18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. God bless

This is a very difficult situation. Personally, I would not let this affect your marriage negatively. If your husband feels led to do this, then maybe it is best to not fight it. Pray about it, and see what the Lord says to you on the matter. Will be praying as well, God bless.

I responded to this already, too disgusted to say it again so I'll just post link here. https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/217751-pope-shocks-chile-by-accusing-sex-abuse-victims-of-slander/?do=findComment&comment=2744608

Well, I agree with you on a lot of what you are saying, but to me there are important aspects of this to point to. Paul does indeed speak of resurrection, and while he doesn't specifically state anything about an immortal soul, it is confirmed by scripture on many occasions indirectly from my viewpoint. On your first point, exactly when do you believe you are saved? At what point are you granted eternal life? Is it when you are born again, or when you receive a new covering? And what exactly is it that your current body and future body are covering? To me, this is one of the indirect teachings that point to what I believe to be true. At no point that I am aware of, are we told that we will be granted eternal life, but that there is going to be a break in our existence when our bodies give out. The very concept defies what is taught regarding being granted eternal life. How can it be eternal if there is a time we cease to exist? How can the Holy Spirit become part of you and then you become nothing, even temporarily? On your second point, mostly what I said above would be repeated, but I do have a few question in regards to this. If we are to be resurrected like Christ (which I definitely agree with you on), doesn't that indicate we will still exist? Do you believe Jesus ceased to exist for a period of time, or did He remain eternal? God bless

Hello Jaynee, The thousand years comes from the book of Revelation, and John points to the starting point as to when it begins. Revelation 20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. Now this takes place shortly after the Second Coming, and is the period known as the Millennial kingdom. Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison The enemy is released after this period of time, and then we have the Gog-Magog war which is the conclusion of hostilities. After that is when we are told the New Jerusalem descends to the earth. Revelation 21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God." Hope that answers your question. God bless

I found a good way to quit was this. Day one, one cigarette per hour. Day 2, one cigarette every two hours. Each day go longer without, and eventually you can be done. Also, I found hard candies like jolly ranchers were useful to keep handy and pop in my mouth every time I thought of smoking. The first couple of days without nicotine are the hardest, usually some headaches involved, but it will pass after about 3 days. God bless

Yes, anything that delves into the spiritual realm of things is difficult to grasp until we experience it I suspect. Much like the idea of eternity, we understand the definition, we know what it means, but actually grasping it when all we know are finite things is a bit different. Well, not exactly, but I think maybe where your understanding parts ways with mine is found here. II Corinthians 5 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. Now, if I understand your position correctly, what you argue is that being out of our current body makes us naked. But that is not what the passage states, look closely at verses 2 and 3. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. Then here in verse 4, it clears up that being out of this body or earthly tent is not being unclothed. We are further clothed because we have the Holy Spirit. Verse 5 goes back to what I was referring to already, the Spirit is our guarantee. So we know what it means to be asleep, Paul is clear on that in his teachings, it means we are dead. Getting back to the passage from Thessalonians, God will bring with Him those who are asleep. He is coming from heaven. Paul doesn't say God will gather to Him those who are asleep, he says God will bring with Him. This doesn't align with your resurrection theory at all, because we know it is the bodies of the dead that are gathered for the resurrection. In order for your understanding to be correct, there would have to be more resurrections, but scripture is clear that there are not. There is only one resurrection of those in Christ to come. I Corinthians 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. God bless

Matthew 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit. 51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. I think this is what you were looking for.

I am not a catholic, but I certainly have a lot to say on this topic. Personally I find nothing more despicable than a child abuser or molester, so it sure isn't anything pleasant I have to offer. I have always considered catholics to be Christians, but I have to say at this point, anyone who still adheres to this corrupt and wicked heirarchy is questionable at best. Even the most hardened criminals in this country cannot abide a child predator, so it really says something when the highest position of what claims to be a Christian group attacks victims of sexual abuse. Not only does he attack them, but continues to do so, which has been completely ignored by the liberal press here. Instead they have spent the last year creating scandals against the President rather than dealing with one of the most egregious acts of my lifetime. While he is busy blaming the children and absolving 2000 pedophiles, all we hear about is unfounded accusations and go nowhere investigations. Ironic, considering that the liberals love to promote themselves as the champions of the little guy, and yet they go silent on this issue. Children to blame for being molested...... yeah, now I've heard it all. If he ever sets foot on American soil, he should be charged with child endangerment and fed to the wolves. Good ol' Francis, here is a bit of news for you my friend, because when this was spoken, it had you written all over it. Matthew 7: 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

I don't think what occurs prior to being born can be undone. I mean, either we believe that our sins are forgiven or we don't. Now once a person is born again, then the choices and decisions made from that point on should reflect one abiding in Christ. It does appear based on some of the responses here that some would promote more divorce, and breaking up of marriages and families by trying to live life in reverse. I wonder what they say to someone who committed murder and later became saved. Is that person supposed to go back and restore life to the one they took it from? Seems a bit of a double standard to suggest someone married currently has to go back and undo their current situation because of the past. What if someone is now twenty years into their second marriage with three kids? Are they supposed to rip their family apart now because they were married once before in the past prior to knowing the Lord? I am quite certain this is not what God would want, but that's just me. God bless

Actually, you can't say how I treat the soul, because you have no idea how I see it lol. That is merely an assumption on your part, but this is my honest reply to it. I understand what the body is, and I understand what the Holy Spirit is. The soul to me, in my current state, I cannot accurately define or really grasp to treat it in any manner. I do know this though from scripture, there is only ONE spirit, and it is immortal. So understanding that being born again makes me part of that ONE spirit, and taking the rest of scripture in conjunction with that, I know I will be with Him when I shed this mortal body. God bless

I'm really not, I've been to funerals many times. I understand that the body goes into the ground, and I understand that those bodies are in some way raised up on the last day to form the immortal body. Our Spirit, being sealed by the Holy Spirit, will return to heaven upon death and there we will await. In Revelation, John uses the word soul, but to me it is really just semantics, the bottom line is we are with Him once we die. Which is why Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him that day in paradise. From what you said above, I don't think we see this differently, we are simply defining it differently.

I don't interpret scripture, I merely read it and accept what it says. To put this into a modern application, if I invite a friend to a BBQ, and he says I am bringing the kids with me, that means they are coming from the same place. Otherwise he would say something along the lines of, I'm going to pick up the kids on my way or something like that. But Paul doesn't say God will gather those asleep, he says God will bring with Him. God bless

Fellowship. Welcome to worthy

Forgiveness will ultimately free you from all of this. It is a process though, can take some time depending on the severity of the offense. Start by convincing yourself that not wanting to forgive, goes against your personal faith. What if God did not want to forgive you of a trespass? Also, don't confuse forgiveness with being a doormat, even when we forgive there are consequences for actions, this is where time factors in before total healing takes place. God bless

I Thessalonians 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

I would have to decline the invitation.

II Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. Matthew 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. Luke 1:26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary.28 And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” 29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. 30 And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” Romans 3:10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” 13 “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” 14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” 15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 in their paths are ruin and misery, 17 and the way of peace they have not known.” 18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Romans 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Romans 7: 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Romans 7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

I suspect some sort of archaeological discovery in Egypt is the next event to watch for.

Hey brother, I agree with you on your three points above, the only minor difference would be in regards to where we fit in. I see that group referred to as the woman's offspring, or remnant of her seed (depending on which translation) can only be believers based on the requirement that they hold to the testimony of Jesus. I believe it also confirms Revelation 13 in regards to the timing, and the war being waged against the saints for the exact same length of time. I agree with all of this, exactly how I see it as well. I agree, this is where many begin to part ways on what is being said. My take on Revelation 12, is that it is divided into three sections. Verse 6 is the completion of the first section, which for the most part is referencing history until verse 6 itself. I am convinced at this point that verse 6 is speaking about a future event. My answer to your question is yes, I do believe as you do that satan still has access, which I believe we have evidence for in numerous places such as Job and also from Revelation. Having said that, I must ask the question, are we certain that this war can only be a future event? Or is it possible that this war has been going on since before the fall of man? I think maybe because of how we understand war, from an earthly perspective, we view this from a mortal perspective. However, this war does not involve mortals at all, so I guess it depends on whether one believes there are casualties in this heavenly war or not. I personally do not, and I believe there is scriptural support for that position, although it is not something I would debate because we really lack enough information. We often hear the term spiritual warfare, so I would say it is safe to say that by in large, we recognize that something is taking place in the spiritual realm presently. As I see it, this is the same war that has been going on for as long as God fearing men and women have inhabited the earth. It will come to an end, and when it does the battlefield simply shifts to the earth, which at that point becomes the type of war we are more familiar with on earth, where there are casualties. I agree with you in regards to this, but maybe slightly different in that I don't tie this into the 7th trumpet. I mentioned before that I see this in basically three segments, verse 1-6 being the first, and the second segment being verses 7-12. Like the first segment, this segment also looks back to the past and gives some information regarding the enemy, even identifying whom the dragon is specifically. So it ties together two tales, one of Israel, and one of satan. Verse 10 is important, and this is how I understand what is being told. Really, it is telling us exactly what we heard in verse 6, and what we hear throughout the final segment. The rescue of the faithful remnant has come, as the Lord personally takes up defense of the woman, and He does so with supernatural power and might displayed. This is also the last of heaven the enemy will ever see, he is permanently banned and we have arrived at the beginning of the end. The war in heaven is over, and now the earth is under full siege. Rather than tying this directly to the 7th trumpet, to me, this is directly linked to the 5th trumpet. We read there in Revelation 9 about a star falling from heaven to earth, who holds the key to the abyss. We also see there is a protection given to those with the seal of God on their foreheads, and that this event is the first woe. Verse 12 above, confirms that the enemy being thrown down is a woe to the inhabitants of the earth and sea. The seal being placed, also coincides with the protection that the woman is to receive from the enemy. Obviously the first four trumpets would have already sounded at this point, but what we do know from scripture is that the three woes are linked to the final three trumpets. There is nothing to indicate following the 5th trumpet the amount of time between it and the next trumpet. We do know that when the 6th trumpet sounds, the 7th comes quickly after it though. The popular opinion is that the period known as the great tribulation is about God's judgement, but I do not believe scripture supports that position at all, and I see that displayed in this section of Revelation 12. The woe is because the devil is coming down, and to me it appears that the great tribulation is about what he is going to do when he gets here. We think this world is an evil place now, but when he sets up his authority, true evil will be unleashed in full force, like the world has never seen. Verses 13-17 just pick up from where we left off in verse 6 and finish telling the story, and tying together other events taking place, such as the war on the saints in chapter 13, which really accounts for the majority of the time period known as the great tribulation. God's judgement comes at the end, and I also believe the OT prophecies confirm this in regards to this being done swiftly once Jesus arrives on earth. To me this accounts for the third woe quickly following the second woe. In regards to this, at the present I am leaning toward a new possibility in regards to the time of Jacob's trouble, so I'll throw it out there and see if it makes any sense to you. What if the reason behind this being called "Jacob's" trouble, as opposed to Israel's trouble, is because the 2/3 that will be cut off and die. Certainly for them it is a time of trouble, right? At this point, there was no more Jacob, God had changed his name long before this prophecy, so could the understanding be found in the name used? I'm not dogmatic about it or anything, just something that has been on my mind recently. Do you think that this could be reason? Or can you think of any reason that this is not possible? I agree that the Second Coming is a process, which I believe begins from the moment the devil is cast down to the earth. Once the war in heaven is won, the focus will shift to the earth, and most likely this is when preparations are made to begin the return of the King. To me, the tribulation of those days ends when the war against the saints is over, and that will coincide with the Lord appearing in the sky. At this point satan has to gather his troops for the battle of Armageddon, which also takes time. Then comes the swift judgement, at the battle of Armageddon, which is precisely where and when scripture declares "Behold, I come as a thief". I didn't necessarily start at the end, but near it I suppose. For me, I started from the point where the Second Coming takes place, and then basically I go through systematically and eliminate theories or notions that scripture does not support as possible. So I think we have a very similar approach as far as systematic, but probably a different methodology. I am more of an investigator type, following evidence you could say. That's why I don't put forth theories regarding the majority of events, because most of the judgements have no information to connect to any timing. Naturally I have thoughts about where or when some may happen, but accept that I could be completely wrong. Amen to that, can hardly wait. The wisest course of action I think. I have stepped away from the debating myself of late, it is really pointless. I do enjoy engaging with someone like yourself, because we can have a reasonable discussion even if we may not see eye to eye on an issue. Outside of the things we know to be true (which we tend to agree on as far as I have noticed), neither of us are dogmatic about things that cannot be said with certainty, which are basically things scripture does not specify. I look forward to any feedback you have. God bless

We take our cherries pretty seriously here in Michigan as well.