wingnut-

Hello sister, I agree completely on this as well, the gathering is in the clouds on the way to earth. Well, those who are already asleep are coming with Him, He brings them the scripture says. Maybe the difference here is in our understanding of the group who are asleep. The majority of believers will be dead as I see it, the great multitude John sees in heaven are all deceased people. I don't think the number who are alive and remain will be very large, most likely it will be the 1/3 of Israel who come to belief in the wilderness that represent the group who remain alive. The beast is going to kill most believers in his war against the saints, so the vast majority of the saints He will bring with Him. I agree that the angels will be coming with Him as well, no doubt. Ok, here is where we differ on this part. This verse states "after that tribulation", now you are defining this as the tribulation, which I am assuming you mean the great tribulation. But what is it specifically that precedes this verse, which accounts for "that tribulation" Mark is speaking about? It is all about the time of the beast that precedes this, which is the war against the saints. Starting from verse 14 and the AoD, verse 19 lets us know that this is the great tribulation. Verse 21 and 22 contain more warning about false christs and false prophets performing great signs and wonders, and verse 23 is that we have been forewarned. Then we see the sign of His coming in verse 24, following the 3 1/2 years of the beasts war against the saints. The Lord is not returning until the last of the martyrs have been killed, just as we are told back at the opening of the fifth seal. Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. This is the number we are waiting on to be complete, and note that they must be killed. They will be killed by the beast in his war against the saints, as scripture tells us the saints will be conquered. We are told this occurs in the exact same sequence given in the Olivet Discourse. Revelation 13:5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear: 10 If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints. Verse 5 and 6 referring to the AoD. Verse 7 tells us about the war and that the saints are ALLOWED to be conquered, in other words, killed. Also verse 7 touches on the beast's kingdom and his GIVEN authority over the earth and the establishment of his worship. Except for those whose names are in the Lamb's book of life, or, the elect. Look closely at verse 9, if anyone has an ear, let him hear. This phrase is used specifically in the New Testament, 7 times in the beginning of Revelation directed at each of the 7 churches. Verse 10, in regards to a very specific church. Revelation 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life. 9 “‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’ Even those who go into captivity will be killed. The phrase "he who has an ear, let him hear" or similar versions of it, are all exclusive to the New Testament, the four gospels in particular as Jesus often said this in His parables, and John uses it often in the book of Revelation. There is a reason for that, especially if you look where this is used and the topic of discussion. I want to go back now and touch on this topic about who is following Him out of heaven and hopefully this clarifies things for you a bit on this. Specifically in regards to the attire which I put in red above. Revelation 19:7 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; 8 it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. In Revelation 6 and 7 we see the souls under the altar and the great multitude receive their white robes, and we are told that they were made white in the blood of the Lamb. So these dead saints are definitely part of the army following Him out of heaven. I agree with you that we most likely do not participate in the battle itself, but we will be following Him out. God bless

Further proof that De Nial is not just a river in Egypt.

No problem brother, there is an awful lot to consider, so I want to digest it all a bit rather than poking holes in it. I think you have a lot of great points in this, there are a few things I see as problematic, but I would rather take some time and make sure I am taking it all in first rather than confusing things with preconceived notions. Naturally many will reject it, but that is not unusual when you threaten someone's security blanket. I know what you mean about being glad I'm not the one trying to explain it, it is very hard for folks to clear their minds and look at something objectively. That is why I will take my time and carefully consider everything before critiquing. I look forward to future discussions though and any future installments you have to offer. God bless

How about the fact it is a made up term that doesn't exist in scripture? For one so quick to throw condemnation out at others, you really should heed the warnings about adding to the book. Still waiting for you to show where this is stated in the book of Revelation. All I see are people refusing to repent outside of the one group in Jerusalem following the second woe. We don't need to ask, it is rather obvious, they are unbelieving Jews which is why they require the seal being placed on their forehead. Your guess would be wrong, if they were believers they wouldn't require the seal on the forehead, they would have the seal of the Holy Spirit. They also wouldn't need to hide out in the wilderness for 3 1/2 years either. Of course you're changing it, because you still have people dying after the dead are raised. And the order Paul gives does not allow for that, only two resurrections of the living, the first one following Christ's resurrection, and the only other being at His coming. You want to add two or three more resurrections in there, and that is indeed changing it by adding to it. I Corinthians 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits (past resurrection), then at his coming those who belong to Christ. (Only other resurrection, the first resurrection as John calls it) Nothing in between, nothing after other than the resurrection of the dead following the millennium. When you add two or three more in there, you are in fact trying to change it. No matter how many times you say it, it will not be true. No one will survive the sudden destruction outside of the group in Jerusalem that give glory to God, when God gives a prophecy and says "they will not escape", you can take that to the bank. Every single unbeliever is toast, as Peter gives a clear description of why. Fire that melts the heavens and the earth and the elements. The word first is fairly compelling. The fact that Paul only gives one more resurrection as well makes two witnesses, no amount of talking around the scripture or adding extra events will convince me otherwise. That's exactly what I said. Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. Sure looks like many of them were dressed like that since the fifth seal was opened. The Old Testament saints have already been resurrected, they were resurrected when Jesus was. They are in the first group from I Corinthians 15, the resurrection from the past, only one left, which would be the first resurrection from Revelation 20. God bless

Good stuff rollin, a lot to consider in all of this, will get back to you when I've digested it all. Look forward to the next installment. God bless

Nehemiah 8:10 Then he said to them, “Go your way. Eat the fat and drink sweet wine and send portions to anyone who has nothing ready, for this day is holy to our Lord. And do not be grieved, for the joy of the Lord is your strength.”

Mark 4: 16 And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy. 17 And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. Let me guess, bad translation as well? These folks are being taken out of the way as well.

Yes I know, they want to change the order and have the living resurrected before all of the dead are. While they will claim this is not what they are doing, they will make up phrases like tribulation saints who are clearly killed after their mystery event, which of course means that they are doing exactly that, despite the order of resurrection given by both Paul and John. This is the very reason their theory is not possible and precisely why I reject their theory. Agreed, but you said it yourself right here, God brings those who sleep with Him when He comes. This means that the saints are with Him when He comes for battle. Well, it says it in the passage we discussed. Break it down like this. I Thessalonians 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. He brings those who are asleep with Him, still not in their glorified bodies. I Thessalonians 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. He tells us that those alive will be raised after the dead bodies of those who are asleep are raised. I Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Here it clarifies He is descending from heaven when He gives the command, the archangel is with Him along with the trumpet, and the dead rise first. I Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Then the living meet them in the air. From I Corinthians 15 we know that this is where we are all changed into our glorified bodies, the first resurrection John writes about in Revelation 20. I'm not sure either way, whether anyone does any killing other than Jesus Himself. The Old Testament prophets write about Him speaking the enemy dead, or killing them by simply moving His hand. I think the one thing about this entire event is that it will be fast, a slaughter. Well, the verse from Zechariah 14 does say that. Look at it from the KJV. Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Saints and holy ones are the exact same translation, they are interchangeable words just like elect and chosen. Almost every translation uses the word saints in Zechariah 14. Being with Him does not mean we are doing any of the killing, His robe is the only one dipped in blood. Once we are in our glorified bodies we are just like the angels, there is no more telling us apart once we are in our glorified bodies. God bless

Thank you Marilyn, I thought from your first response this was what you meant but wanted to clarify just to be certain. I agree with what you are saying here, but I do think there is one other aspect from the passage in question. Do you think that Paul specifying that not all who DESCEND are from Israel is also including those who are not Jewish? In the overall context of Romans 9, particularly the verses that follow, Paul talks about the difference regarding the promise through Abraham. Particularly I am curious what is said in verse 8 below, and what that means in your opinion. Romans 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. Who do you believe are the children of the promise? Romans 2:28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. Also, I am curious as to your understanding of this passage from Romans, where Paul also talks about the difference between the physical and spiritual aspect, stating that a Jew is one inwardly based on the Spirit. Do you think these two things are related, being children of the promise and circumcision of the heart? God bless

Hey sister, Not sure if it makes a difference to you or not, but the translation I posted is the ESV. Now in most translations the word used in Zechariah 14 is saints. It is the same word used throughout the Old Testament that is typically translated as saints, and the holy ones is also a proper translation. I would though offer you these other things to consider. When you ask about pre-trib saints, obviously to me not being pre-trib I assume you mean those who are deceased, and Paul tells us that they follow Him out of heaven. I Thessalonians 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. So these deceased people follow Him out of heaven and then meet up with those who are alive and remain in the air. At this point we all get our glorified bodies, and what happens when we get those? Mark 12:25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. There won't be a difference once we get our glorified bodies, just something to consider. God bless

Hello again Marilyn, I'm not understanding your response I guess in regards to the question. What I am asking is what your understanding is of the passage from Romans specifically. What is Paul saying here in your opinion? Romans 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, If not all of Israel descend from Israel, then who is the Israel Paul is speaking about?

Hello sister, Sorry to interject but I have some for you in regards to this. Zechariah 14: 5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. God bless

Hey Rollin', Very interesting read, would like to see more in regards to the parables. I do have a question for you that is multi-layered, but will just state it as this. How does I Corinthians 15 fit into this? Specifically the order given, and that we are all changed at the same time. God bless

You make some excellent points jade. I know that you know a lot more about this stuff than I ever will, so I am sure you are correct about this. And yes, people do often use more than one pharmacy which is a mistake. I always use the same one just to make sure this sort of thing doesn't happen to me.

Amen.

Yeah, a double failure, and to be honest, if the doctor is going to be held accountable why are the pharmacists not being charged as well?

Thank you for the update, appreciate the information. Sorry if I sounded like I was being hard on the troops over there or the government, mostly just a result of frustration and lack of information. Naturally I want the troops to be safe as well as they carry out a dangerous exercise. Will continue to keep you all in prayers, and do be safe in your travels. God bless brother

Hello Marilyn, I think we all agree Jesus is not a liar. In regards to the elect though, and our understanding of whom the elect is, can you tell me what this passage means to you. Romans 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, If all who are born Jewish do not belong to Israel, then who is Israel?

This is a ridiculous claim. First of all, I have never heard anyone preach this, ever. The only thing I have ever heard preached is pre-trib, not one church I have ever attended preached anything else. Second off, it doesn't sound good at all, but it is the truth.

Indeed, I think it is quite possible that those who are alive and remain will mostly be the remnant of Israel. Verse 15 from Revelation 13 gives a pretty good indication of what will happen to anyone that refuses to worship the beast. Revelation 13:15 And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.

I would say the reason for this is simple, the war against the saints will result in very few believers remaining alive. God bless

I like my KJV, but I also like the ESV and NASB, both very good translations.

I was aware of this, he became a Christian some time ago now. A very intelligent man, not at all like the person most people imagine him to be based on his past public persona.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. John states that whoever believes in Him doesn't perish, this is the elect, no contradiction.