Athiest Logic cont'd

[MorningGlory]

Ah, humor. Of course we can track the evolution of social mores in Western culture.

Are you saying, MorningGlory, that you think evolution has taken place among animals but not among humans?

Sure, evolution has occurred within nonhuman species; that's undeniable. You, I, and the 6.5 billion other inhabitants of this planet are indistinguishable from the first Homo Sapiens Sapiens though. Other than environmentally induced changes (people are bigger now) there is very little difference.

[MorningGlory]

Ah, humor. Of course we can track the evolution of social mores in Western culture.

Are you saying, MorningGlory, that you think evolution has taken place among animals but not among humans?

Sure, evolution has occurred within nonhuman species; that's undeniable. You, I, and the 6.5 billion other inhabitants of this planet are indistinguishable from the first Homo Sapiens Sapiens though. Other than environmentally induced changes (people are bigger now) there is very little difference.

Being caucasian with British/German heritage I am pretty clearly different from those in Africa and the East. Could a forensic expert distinguish the skull of a Japanese from an Icelander? I imagine he could. I guess my point is that I really don't think we know exactly how the first Homo Sapien Sapien may have been different from us at least in the sense that even though we are all the same species there clearly, outwardly, are some pretty obvious differences today. We may have started out looking the same 150,000/6000 years ago (depending on view point) but it seems we are rapidly parting company, especially if the accurate figure is the smaller one, and my guess is that we of European descent don't look like those early ancestors.

True, the outward appearance varies greatly but that's environmental. God designed us to adapt to our surroundings. Darker skinned people come from hot climates; the melanin in their skin protects them from the sun. Our Caucasian ancestors came from cold northern European climates....hence the lighter skin; not as much sunlight to be protected against. Of course, this works against someone like you, or an Irish lass like myself, when we live in hot climates. Like TEXAS! I studiously avoid the sun. The different races are WAY more alike than they are different though.

[MorningGlory]

What you are saying, I think, is that an adaptive mechanism was built into the system, not that God hovered over us and directed all the alterations. I too agree that the adaptive mechanism exists, I just think it evolved.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I believe. He created us to be able to adapt.

Yes, have you seen all the findings on vitamin D that have appeared recently? Interesting stuff.

Actually, no, I haven't. What are the findings?

Ah, an Irish lass. Are the tales of the stereo-typical Irish temper true or so much cack. By the way, I too avoid the sun. I mostly burn.

No cack involved, my friend.

True, but depending on ones outlook, the changes that have taken place could be seen as evidence that divergence is taking place.

Not really. As races intermarry we move toward a more homogenous population. Here, in Houston, fully half of the Hispanics I know have one white parent. Most black folks I know have white, Hispanic or native ancestry as well. Or, maybe, I just happen to know a diverse group of people.

[RebekahDavid]

i agree with you MorningGlory .

it is our responsibility to share the Good News. the Lord will do the rest i am very thankful the bold Christian who challenged me felt the same way you do

love your sister in Christ,

Rebekah David

[Botz]

If people had given up on me just because I was unresponsive and very argumentative to the gospel, I doubt I would have been saved, and I am always thankful to those who faithfully and patiently argued back with the truth of Scripture as best they were able to communicate it to me, and prayed in the privacy of their own hearts.

Botz, you have probably already answered this question, and if so perhaps you could direct me to an earlier post, but what changed your mind? I don't think there was any one thing that moved me toward atheism (it happened in my teens and I am not really sure why). God just stopped making sense for me. How old were you when you became an atheist? Did you have a weak religious up-bringing? How old were you when you moved back to faith based thinking? Was there any one thing in particular that caused the light to suddenly flick on or was it a gradual reawakening?

Hi Hitchey.

I was not really brought up in a Christian household, although my family were nominal Church of England, and the schools that I attended had daily chapel and religious studies (all religions).

It is difficult to pin-point exactly how ones heart or mind operated all those years ago, all I know is that I believed in Santa more than Jesus, until I was about 12, then I gradually believed in nothing until around the age of 17 when I explored communism and for 2 years devoted my reading to Russian literature. From 19 to 21 I kept bumping into various people as I travelled around Europe, who had a strong faith in Jesus, and devoted time telling me about Him, arguing and generally interacting...most were really gracious in spite of my unpleasant attitude and unkind words at times.

I never moved back to faith based thinking, as I never had it in the first place.

You could say that over the two years in Europe there was a gradual spiritual awareness...but if there was I did not realise it...there was really more of a softening to those that believed in Jesus, and kept wanting to tell me of their faith, and the necessity to believe in Him.

It was when I was hitching through Spain with a girl-friend, that we got invited to an Evangelical Church by various kids we met in the streets of Torremolinos...the thing that made us go, was not the thought of going to some Christian service, but the invitation to partake of free food afterwards...I was physically hungry and not spiritually hungry at all.

It was a youth run service, and we heard testimonies from various young people about how they came to know Jesus...I thought it was pathetic, and could not stop myself laughing...even in front of them...but my girl-friend was a lot more open, so they spoke to her a lot, and invited us to meals throughout the week.

By the next Sunday, we felt obligated to accept their invitation to attend the service again, and they had an Evangelist from the UK called Harry Ramsden there who preached the gospel....it was as he was preaching that something seemed to change in my heart/mind/spirit and as though G-d had somehow got through my defenses by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, so that when he gave an altar-call (never heard of those before that day) and invited people to the front to repent of their sins and to believe on Jesus and have a new life and eternal hope...I run up there. (It was a shock to the people we had befriended, as they thought my girl-friend would respond...they afterwards told me they couldn't believe I would ever respond).

I was the only one to respond, and I must admit I felt a bit of a Charlie up there in front of everyone on my own...music kept playing (amazing grace) as the preacher extended and prolonged his invitation, but I was the only one. I prayed in front of everyone and asked Jesus to forgive me, and make Himself real to me....nothing happened, no lights, no voices...nada.

However over the next couple of days the presence of G-d became totally real, and I knew the lovely encounter of the Holy Spirit...the Bible became real and alive, and I devoured its words hungrily. From that point on I knew G-d was, and I knew Jesus was my L-rd and Saviour. I have highs and lows since then...but never once questioned His existence, because the reality is that I can never escape from His presence, and to deny Him would be like saying my Mum and Dad never existed...even if I wanted to I couldn't as I would have to deny what I know to be true, and the One with whom I have a relationship, and one day will see face to face.

I don't consider myself a religious bloke, just a saved sinner.

Hope that answers your questions.

May G-d touch your heart, open your eyes and reveal Himself to you.

In Messiah. Botz.

[MorningGlory]

Hi Hitchey.

I was not really brought up in a Christian household, although my family were nominal Church of England, and the schools that I attended had daily chapel and religious studies (all religions).

It is difficult to pin-point exactly how ones heart or mind operated all those years ago, all I know is that I believed in Santa more than Jesus, until I was about 12, then I gradually believed in nothing until around the age of 17 when I explored communism and for 2 years devoted my reading to Russian literature. From 19 to 21 I kept bumping into various people as I travelled around Europe, who had a strong faith in Jesus, and devoted time telling me about Him, arguing and generally interacting...most were really gracious in spite of my unpleasant attitude and unkind words at times.

I never moved back to faith based thinking, as I never had it in the first place.

You could say that over the two years in Europe there was a gradual spiritual awareness...but if there was I did not realise it...there was really more of a softening to those that believed in Jesus, and kept wanting to tell me of their faith, and the necessity to believe in Him.

It was when I was hitching through Spain with a girl-friend, that we got invited to an Evangelical Church by various kids we met in the streets of Torremolinos...the thing that made us go, was not the thought of going to some Christian service, but the invitation to partake of free food afterwards...I was physically hungry and not spiritually hungry at all.

It was a youth run service, and we heard testimonies from various young people about how they came to know Jesus...I thought it was pathetic, and could not stop myself laughing...even in front of them...but my girl-friend was a lot more open, so they spoke to her a lot, and invited us to meals throughout the week.

By the next Sunday, we felt obligated to accept their invitation to attend the service again, and they had an Evangelist from the UK called Harry Ramsden there who preached the gospel....it was as he was preaching that something seemed to change in my heart/mind/spirit and as though G-d had somehow got through my defenses by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, so that when he gave an altar-call (never heard of those before that day) and invited people to the front to repent of their sins and to believe on Jesus and have a new life and eternal hope...I run up there. (It was a shock to the people we had befriended, as they thought my girl-friend would respond...they afterwards told me they couldn't believe I would ever respond).

I was the only one to respond, and I must admit I felt a bit of a Charlie up there in front of everyone on my own...music kept playing (amazing grace) as the preacher extended and prolonged his invitation, but I was the only one. I prayed in front of everyone and asked Jesus to forgive me, and make Himself real to me....nothing happened, no lights, no voices...nada.

However over the next couple of days the presence of G-d became totally real, and I knew the lovely encounter of the Holy Spirit...the Bible became real and alive, and I devoured its words hungrily. From that point on I knew G-d was, and I knew Jesus was my L-rd and Saviour. I have highs and lows since then...but never once questioned His existence, because the reality is that I can never escape from His presence, and to deny Him would be like saying my Mum and Dad never existed...even if I wanted to I couldn't as I would have to deny what I know to be true, and the One with whom I have a relationship, and one day will see face to face.

I don't consider myself a religious bloke, just a saved sinner.

Hope that answers your questions.

May G-d touch your heart, open your eyes and reveal Himself to you.

In Messiah. Botz.

Wonderful testimony, Botz! I am so happy you came to God and I hope that your story will inspire others as well.

[Botz]

Who knows indeed mate...!

Every day dawns fresh hope and opportunity, until we die.

May you be drawn like a moth to the flame to the unfathomable love G-d has for you in Jesus.

In Messiah. Botz

[traveller]

New thread created to accomodate the ones actively involved.

MG - you're at the top so it looks like you're the new OP.

Continue on, family

[OneLight]

I don't believe that there is one person who never, at some point of their life, wondered if God really exists. Some more deeply then most, but there had to be a question before we found an answer. When questioning, we consider every avenue we know.

[RebekahDavid]

blessings Hitchey,

nope i was not an atheist as my first recollection as a infant was of God which was greatly discouraged by my family as they are not believers yet.for many years i put that out of mind and just continued on with life as the rest of my family encouraged me to a very secular life.

much later in life i ran into a very talented musician who was Christian. ( music was one of my passions) i respected his talent but his belief made it very difficult at times and at that particular stage in my life i was pretty much anti christian agnostic if anything tho not sure even agnostic is right as i was not seeking any god. this guy spoke with an authority that really irked me and sometimes i would look up passages in a Bible to try to disprove what he would say. finally in the midst of one rather heated discussion he challenged me to read the whole Bible to prove he was wrong starting from Genesis and continuing to the end. i agreed to it only so i would gain knowledge to prove him wrong but God had a different idea. from the very first verse in the very first chapter of the very first book the Lord opened my heart to His truth as He continues to open up scripture for me daily.

as for my family they are still non believers which has been a huge source of struggle for me personally as it made me sort of an outcaste in my family, but also a huge source of growth in the love and grace of the Lord and it is no coincidence that now, when they are ill and coming to the end of their days, i am the one who can reach out in the love of Jesus as His hands and feet of compassion.

love your sister in Christ,

Rebekah David

Esther 4:14:

14For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?