Is OSAS true

[kross]

Unbelief is a unique sin. If it is possible to go from godless unbelief to godly faith, then it is possible to revert from faith to unbelief (conditions of salvation), unless we are robots and less free after conversion than before. Just as it is possible to resist God's saving grace and power before conversion (universalism is not true), so it is possible to reject His keeping grace and power after conversion (perseverance is not unconditional; automatic; unilateral).

Reciprocal love relationships must be freely entered into and maintained.

Grace is the grounds (reason by which saved) for salvation, but the conditions (not without which) are repentant faith and continuance in the faith. Continued vs ceased faith is not a work or denial of grace (grace is not irresistible= Calvinist oxymoron).

Faith is given as a gift of GOD. The only way a person can go from no faith to fatih is if GOD does it. If GOD does it, HE will not undo it. Salvation is of GOD, not man and of all that HE has given to HIS SON, HE will loose none of them.

As far as the robots statement, the fact that you were a slave to sin and Satan and are set free by the faith given by GOD means that you would have to be back in bondage to sin and Satan, he who the SON sets free is free indeed.

[Ovedya]

Is Once Saved Always Saved true.

I know that my only hope is Jesus. I know that salvation can come by no other way.

But can I lose it.

If my life doesn't produce good fruit?

Will Christ reject me if I don't forgive my fellow brother for wronging me.

Lets get this made clear from the start. Christ rejects no one. whether you never get saved or if you turn from your salvation after once receiving it. Jesus doesn't reject anyone it is us who rejects Him, and yes we can turn from our salvation if we choose to (it is a part of our free will) OSAS is not true, but that does not mean Christ rejected us.

What evidence do you have of true free will - of absolutely free will?

Salvation is all the evidence that is needed to answer that question. Christ offers all salvation through the Grace of God. It is not forced on us. Nor are we manipulated into receiving salvation. We choose of our own free will to except the offer of salvation. We choose to turn our free will over to Christ so that His will be done in our life. You want to see some one who does not have the will of Christ in their life. Look at the lost. They live according to how they want to live and not according to how Christ wants them to live.

If salvation is forced on us then what is the point? We would simply be robots and robots have no sin because they can not commit sin nor can they do good. When I was lost I reached out and grabbed that beer God didn't, I smoked that joint God didn't, I snorted that line God didn't. If it wasn't me snorting that line of my own choosing then who was making me do all that cocaine and other drugs? Did somebody cause me to go to that party because I couldn't think for myself? Did somebody push my head down and cause me to snort that line because I was helpless to stop them? No! No! and No! I did those things because that is what I wanted to do and the same goes for my salvation.

I choose of my own God given free will to receive Christ over the world and I choose to freely give my life over to Christ to do with what He wants.

If that is not evidence enough of true free will then I was force to be a sinner and then I was forced to be a Christian. Whats next? Will I be forced again some day to become a stone cold sinner once again or do I have control enough over my free will to keep my face turned to Christ?

Then it was free will alone that was unaffected by the fall, yes? Then it could be said that the "fallen world" is not absolutely fallen. Then the Scripture which says, "All the world lies in the evil one." is not true. Because in that verse "lies" means "to lie prostrate," in other words "as under anesthesia." And those verses which indicate that man is absolutely fallen - given over to a reprobate mind - are not absulutely true.

See, for me to believe that "free will" is truly "free" then it must necessarily be unencumbered by the influence, the stain, the natural propensity, of the nature of sin. If free will is absolutely free of sin, from the influence of sin, then it must be divine in nature, for only divinity is the nature "above" sin, only divinity can conquer sin. So for me to believe that the fallen world, which absolutely has no power, no influence, and no resistance to sin, has free will, then I would have to disbelieve the absolute fallen nature of the world.

That I have the ability to chose one thing over another has nothing to do with "free will." I can choose toast for my breakfast instead of eggs; that's merely "choice." However, I cannot chose to react in my flesh when someone cuts me off on the freeway. I cannot chose a thought - whether good or evil - to enter my mind at a particular time. A thought will enter depending on the outside world, or just depending on my flesh - whichever happens to be the strongest at any given point.

This is directly related to Total Depravity, which Calvin argued is "total" - absolute. Arminius argued that free will was the result of God's divine "creation" in man, it was the end result of God's image and likeness. However, contrary to Arminius' assertion, God Himself said of man after the fall, just prior to the flood, "...his thought are only evil continually." That doesn't sound much like free will to me. Even Paul in Romans 7 argued "that which I will to do, this I do not do....that which I do not will to do, this I do." If Paul had free will he could have written, "That which I will to do, this I can do." Paul's frustration is direct evidence that we are helpless to our fallen nature when attempting to deal with sin by the practice of religion, in serving God with our minds. His conclusion was that, only by submitting his will to God (actually his entire being) can he be freed from the condemnation of not being able to overcome his flesh.

So here's what I believe: Free will is an illusion. It is a concept which we have theorized that makes us comfortable with the decision we have made to follow Christ. Yet is not we that chose Him, it is He that chose us - from the beginning. Was it Abraham that chose God, or was it God that chose Abraham. Was it Moses that chose God or was it God that chose Him? Was it Paul that chose Christ, or did Christ appear to Him. None of these were seeking God at the time that God called them out. Now, you may argue that, "they responded to the call, they made the choice to follow God." True. But there is no evidence that they had that choice. They were made no offers. God didn't say, "get back to me in a day when you've decided." Abraham was called and God said, "You will." Moses was called and God said, "you will" Paul was called and Christ said, "Go to..."

An world which is totally fallen to the lusts of their flesh has no capacity for making the righteous decision of salvation. They don't even know what salvation is. Therefore, they need God's choosing, God's "irresistible grace" to persuade them to believe into Christ.

[godrulz]

Unbelief is a unique sin. If it is possible to go from godless unbelief to godly faith, then it is possible to revert from faith to unbelief (conditions of salvation), unless we are robots and less free after conversion than before. Just as it is possible to resist God's saving grace and power before conversion (universalism is not true), so it is possible to reject His keeping grace and power after conversion (perseverance is not unconditional; automatic; unilateral).

Reciprocal love relationships must be freely entered into and maintained.

Grace is the grounds (reason by which saved) for salvation, but the conditions (not without which) are repentant faith and continuance in the faith. Continued vs ceased faith is not a work or denial of grace (grace is not irresistible= Calvinist oxymoron).

Faith is given as a gift of GOD. The only way a person can go from no faith to fatih is if GOD does it. If GOD does it, HE will not undo it. Salvation is of GOD, not man and of all that HE has given to HIS SON, HE will loose none of them.

As far as the robots statement, the fact that you were a slave to sin and Satan and are set free by the faith given by GOD means that you would have to be back in bondage to sin and Satan, he who the SON sets free is free indeed.

Calvinist/monergist, I presume? Faith is not a unilateral gift from God. Why would He save some (elite elect) and damn others that He could save by giving them faith? Faith is a response to the conviction and convincing of the Spirit by our mind and will. This is not a work nor does it negate His initiation, provision, grace (we cannot save ourselves). It is a condition vs grounds of salvation. Salvation and perseverance are not unilaterally caused or coerced. It is about love, not mechanistic robotics.

[Guest shiloh357]

They are the exact same teaching. Now I agree I am eternally secure in Christ, but if I decided to walk away from God, God would not stop me.

That me be true as to how people see it today, but it was not so in the past. Eternal Security has a founding from scripture. Satan, trying to twist another peace of scripture placed in the minds of those who did not agree, the thought of Once Saved, Always Saved. Because of this, it now is seen as the same.

In Scripture, we can find many that will tell us that if we follow Gods leading in our life and fulfill His will, that we are secured in our salvation, bringing Eternal Security. You even agree with this. Yet, because of the slyness of Satan, confusion has abounded once again and the true meaning of Eternal Security has been lost or forgotten by those who refuse to believe that one can be eternally secure. OSAS has now become its replacement sue to not taking the time to divide the two. It is a lot easier to say it is the same then it is to look at the differences.

OSAS is a doctrine that states that you, once you has asked Jesus to save you from your sins, can live a life of sin without repentance, for CHrist died for our past, present and future sins. Even though He has, we still need to seek true repentance and forgiveness, which is the sill of God. The lie is when people believe that they can live anyway they choose, even if that means not being in His will. Yes, we all sin and fall short of the glory of GOd, yet, it are those who do not have the heart to follwo His will the best they can that are in danger with this belief.

Eternal Security is just that, for those who continue to live the life God has for then to live, dying to themselves daily so that He can live in and through them. Those who are truly seeking His will in their life do have Eternal Security. Those who do not, do not.

There is a difference if you look at scripture instead of what people say. Do not accept teh common understanding, but seek scripture as the Berean, and find for yourself the difference.

Your definition of eternal security which is ''if we follow Gods leading in our life and fulfill His will, that we are secured in our salvation'' is true.

That is not how eternal security is defined. Eternal Security is the expectation of holy living. Religious vanity wants to deserve and earn salvation so that it can boast in itself.

Salvation by its very definition in ANY context is not something you can earn or maintain. Whether you are talking about saving someone from drowning in a river, or an errant hiker off the side of a mountain, or whatever, in EVERY case salvation is provided because a person was incapable of delivering themselves. Salvation has to come from someone else other than themselves as they are helpless and hopelessly doomed on their own. It is not a "partnership" between them and their rescuers. They are not working to engineer salvation.

Furthermore, no one "secures" themselves. Once you are saved from danger, you are not still "working" to keep from falling off the cliff. Rather, you are walking in the salvation provided by someone else. This is true no matter what context you are talking about whether it is physical salvation from danger or spiritual salvation from sin.

Salvation is always somethintg that occurs independent of you and your abilities. If salvation could be secured by you, you would not need a savior to start with.

Our works do not secure salvation. They are the means by which we walk in it. Salvation that is conditional upon works makes man the savior. It diminishes Christ and robs glory from God. It also fails to recognize that your works, no matter how "holy" and grandiose they may appear in your eyes, are filthy to God.

Salvation is Jesus + Zero. The notion that salvation depends on works is not part of the biblical, New Testament Christian faith. It is a rather a cultic, fleshly belief based on the pride and arrogance of human vanity.

[OneLight]

They are the exact same teaching. Now I agree I am eternally secure in Christ, but if I decided to walk away from God, God would not stop me.

That me be true as to how people see it today, but it was not so in the past. Eternal Security has a founding from scripture. Satan, trying to twist another peace of scripture placed in the minds of those who did not agree, the thought of Once Saved, Always Saved. Because of this, it now is seen as the same.

In Scripture, we can find many that will tell us that if we follow Gods leading in our life and fulfill His will, that we are secured in our salvation, bringing Eternal Security. You even agree with this. Yet, because of the slyness of Satan, confusion has abounded once again and the true meaning of Eternal Security has been lost or forgotten by those who refuse to believe that one can be eternally secure. OSAS has now become its replacement sue to not taking the time to divide the two. It is a lot easier to say it is the same then it is to look at the differences.

OSAS is a doctrine that states that you, once you has asked Jesus to save you from your sins, can live a life of sin without repentance, for CHrist died for our past, present and future sins. Even though He has, we still need to seek true repentance and forgiveness, which is the sill of God. The lie is when people believe that they can live anyway they choose, even if that means not being in His will. Yes, we all sin and fall short of the glory of GOd, yet, it are those who do not have the heart to follow His will the best they can that are in danger with this belief.

Eternal Security is just that, for those who continue to live the life God has for then to live, dying to themselves daily so that He can live in and through them. Those who are truly seeking His will in their life do have Eternal Security. Those who do not, do not.

There is a difference if you look at scripture instead of what people say. Do not accept teh common understanding, but seek scripture as the Berean, and find for yourself the difference.

Your definition of eternal security which is ''if we follow Gods leading in our life and fulfill His will, that we are secured in our salvation'' is true.

That is not how eternal security is defined. Eternal Security is the expectation of holy living. Religious vanity wants to deserve and earn salvation so that it can boast in itself.

Salvation by its very definition in ANY context is not something you can earn or maintain. Whether you are talking about saving someone from drowning in a river, or an errant hiker off the side of a mountain, or whatever, in EVERY case salvation is provided because a person was incapable of delivering themselves. Salvation has to come from someone else other than themselves as they are helpless and hopelessly doomed on their own. It is not a "partnership" between them and their rescuers. They are not working to engineer salvation.

Furthermore, no one "secures" themselves. Once you are saved from danger, you are not still "working" to keep from falling off the cliff. Rather, you are walking in the salvation provided by someone else. This is true no matter what context you are talking about whether it is physical salvation from danger or spiritual salvation from sin.

Salvation is always somethintg that occurs independent of you and your abilities. If salvation could be secured by you, you would not need a savior to start with.

Our works do not secure salvation. They are the means by which we walk in it. Salvation that is conditional upon works makes man the savior. It diminishes Christ and robs glory from God. It also fails to recognize that your works, no matter how "holy" and grandiose they may appear in your eyes, are filthy to God.

Salvation is Jesus + Zero. The notion that salvation depends on works is not part of the biblical, New Testament Christian faith. It is a rather a cultic, fleshly belief based on the pride and arrogance of human vanity.

Tell me, is what I highlighted what you are talking about? I really think you are misunderstanding me if you feel that I meant that I can do anything to save myself. My story, and the statements I have made, have all pointed to the fact that we have to accept Christ and what He has for us in order to be saved and have eternal security. Anything else is vanity.

[kross]

GOD will not allow one person HE knows, or has ever known, to spend eternity in a lake of fire.

Now this is the typical OSAS fallacy

GOD will not allow one person HE loves, or has ever loved, to spend an eternity in a lake of fire

Are you an universalist? Because God loves us all, according to you no one will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

No I am not a universalist. You believe GOD loves everybody, despite the fact that scripture is clear that HE does not.

GOD's love is spoken of in scripture as being towards HIS people. Other than the catch all of John 3:16 (taken out of context) there is not one scripture that refers to GOD's love as being towards anyone other than those who are HIS people.

[kross]

Unbelief is a unique sin. If it is possible to go from godless unbelief to godly faith, then it is possible to revert from faith to unbelief (conditions of salvation), unless we are robots and less free after conversion than before. Just as it is possible to resist God's saving grace and power before conversion (universalism is not true), so it is possible to reject His keeping grace and power after conversion (perseverance is not unconditional; automatic; unilateral).

Reciprocal love relationships must be freely entered into and maintained.

Grace is the grounds (reason by which saved) for salvation, but the conditions (not without which) are repentant faith and continuance in the faith. Continued vs ceased faith is not a work or denial of grace (grace is not irresistible= Calvinist oxymoron).

Faith is given as a gift of GOD. The only way a person can go from no faith to fatih is if GOD does it. If GOD does it, HE will not undo it. Salvation is of GOD, not man and of all that HE has given to HIS SON, HE will loose none of them.

As far as the robots statement, the fact that you were a slave to sin and Satan and are set free by the faith given by GOD means that you would have to be back in bondage to sin and Satan, he who the SON sets free is free indeed.

Calvinist/monergist, I presume? Faith is not a unilateral gift from God. Why would He save some (elite elect) and damn others that He could save by giving them faith? Faith is a response to the conviction and convincing of the Spirit by our mind and will. This is not a work nor does it negate His initiation, provision, grace (we cannot save ourselves). It is a condition vs grounds of salvation. Salvation and perseverance are not unilaterally caused or coerced. It is about love, not mechanistic robotics.

If GOD clearly saw that none would choose HIM, then is it wrong that HE would choose some?

Your statement insists that GOD is trying to save people who HE knows everything about, and can not get it done. You are right, it is about love. When GOD's love touches a person, they are drawn by that love. We love HIM because HE first loved us. If you do all of the linguistic studies necessary on the verse that says that, you will see that the word "because" is a word that means there was absolutely no other response possible. The changing of our nature and the infussion of HIS love makes us different. Even when we stray, all HE has to do is touch us with a little bit more of that love and we will return. Not robots, just people designed to respond to the touch of THE HOLY SPIRIT.

All of us have known people who can push our buttons to get the desired response. GOD does that better than any person can, and better than Satan can. HE will never fail to reach, woo, and save anyone HE seeks (even if HE has to break their legs and throw them over HIS shoulders and carry them) because HE loves us that much.

Now, I know there are those who teach that GOD doesn't care enough to go to any greater length than what HE did at the cross. And, if that were true, HE would be well within HIS rights to be that way, because what HE did at the cross was too much. But GOD has a love that knows no bounds. HE will do what it takes to save those whom HE loves. Nothing will stop that from happening.

And once HE has done that, HE will keep them and seal them until the day of redemption.

[godrulz]

Our works do not secure salvation. They are the means by which we walk in it. Salvation that is conditional upon works makes man the savior. It diminishes Christ and robs glory from God. It also fails to recognize that your works, no matter how "holy" and grandiose they may appear in your eyes, are filthy to God.

Salvation is Jesus + Zero. The notion that salvation depends on works is not part of the biblical, New Testament Christian faith. It is a rather a cultic, fleshly belief based on the pride and arrogance of human vanity.

YEP!

If our works can keep us saved, it means they had the power to save us in the first place. This is not what the Bible teaches.

Faith is a condition, not a work. Continued faith (Greek present, continuous, habitual verb tenses) is also not a work, but a condition of remaining in Him. Eternal life is not inherent in us because of a past belief that is no longer true. Life is in Him and faith allows us to remain in Him. The antithesis is godless unbelief and severs the relationship. There is no life apart from relationship with Him (I Jn. 5:11-13).

[Abigailwc]

Our works do not secure salvation. They are the means by which we walk in it. Salvation that is conditional upon works makes man the savior. It diminishes Christ and robs glory from God. It also fails to recognize that your works, no matter how "holy" and grandiose they may appear in your eyes, are filthy to God.

Salvation is Jesus + Zero. The notion that salvation depends on works is not part of the biblical, New Testament Christian faith. It is a rather a cultic, fleshly belief based on the pride and arrogance of human vanity.

YEP!

If our works can keep us saved, it means they had the power to save us in the first place. This is not what the Bible teaches.

..and it would mean that Jesus died on the cross for nothing as His sacrifice would not be needed.

[OneLight]

Our works do not secure salvation. They are the means by which we walk in it. Salvation that is conditional upon works makes man the savior. It diminishes Christ and robs glory from God. It also fails to recognize that your works, no matter how "holy" and grandiose they may appear in your eyes, are filthy to God.

Salvation is Jesus + Zero. The notion that salvation depends on works is not part of the biblical, New Testament Christian faith. It is a rather a cultic, fleshly belief based on the pride and arrogance of human vanity.

YEP!

If our works can keep us saved, it means they had the power to save us in the first place. This is not what the Bible teaches.

Ya know Gator, that sounds like another good thread topic. Maybe something in the line of what happens to the branch when it stops bearing fruit and what did God mean when He said that it would be cut off and cast into the fire?