Is marriage without a public witness.

[Smalcald]

No I disagree FOC.

Marriage in the time of Christ when He spoke of marriage was not some secret thing a man and women just "made up". It was a public profession and a joining of two families. Otherwise divorce which He also spoke of would have no meaning, but we know divorce did have meaning, it had specific legal meaning. Thus marriage as Christ spoke of it had legal/civil implications. But marriage in scripture usually includes the words "given in marriage" by the males of the family. How does that happen without the invovlement of the wider families? It is always in the bible at least; a public event.

It is a promise which includes three entities, God a man and a women, so I would totally agree it is something that God does for us, and thus we are bound by what God has joined, not what we have promised or have decided to not promise anymore. It is something that God does. On this we agree.

If it is not legally bound it is not marriage, otherwise divorce would have no meaning and all fornication would be marriage. JCISD has a good question, how do we differentiate marriage from fornication if we are going to just make marriage into private bedroom promises of which we are ashamed to make public? How is it acting as a husband if you refuse to join your legal assets to your wife? Actions would indicate if a marriage exists or not.

[Blien]

Jesus and Mary had attended a wedding so why shouldn't we offer it? Also Abraham sought a wedding for his son Issac so why should we also seek and celebrate in the same manner?

And also do we forget that in the end time there will be the celebration of the Bride of Christ? I dont know, you tell me what is right. I say it's important to have a public witness to your marriage and recognition by the government!

[JCISGD]

I have taken a 180 turn on my veiws since starting this post and will have to remain such unless shown otherwise.

So i have a question, If a man professes to love a woman, wether married or not and has intercouse, is this marriage?

If married it is definatley adultery, but is it also marriage?

IF we did accept this as marriage, there would be alot less spouses thinking they could jump the fence and then sneak back under the covers hiding behind their peice of paper.

Also those contemplating sex would think twice before jumping if they knew society as a whole would consider them married at intercourse.

OT shows two examples atleast where marriage cerimony was sought after the intercourse took place.

I myself slept with an unmarried woman professing love, but feeling it was wrong afterwards, sneaking off not wanting it to be public knowledge.

What i was also troubled by was that it seemed that the LORD was saying " the thing you do now, is worse than the first".

That is, having professed love and " consumating it, I then went away trying to avoid taking responsibility for my actions.

I was troubled by the conflicting advice that it sin to have the sex, and that i should repent and break off soul ties. Is this scriptural?

Proverbs warns plenty of fleeing from the adulterous woman(she is still married as she says my husband has gone away), but what if the woman is divorced ?

Edited March 17, 2009 by JCISGD

[Blien]

Here is how I see it. Take it as you like:

1. Marriage is a licence to sleep with someone and claim them as your wife/husband. But most importantly a license to have sexual intercourse with that person.

2. Marriage vows can be exchanged and the marriage consummated to be consider someone your wife/husband before God. Yet in saying this, we also know that ALL human beings are sinful and uncontrollable creatures prone to sin and adultery. That being said it is only right, and fair to both parties, that it be sealed on a legal document and point 1 above take place. As someone mentioned earlier, its much easier (and less expensive) if someone wants to divorce someone and go with the latest and greatest person they see..

Why are people trying to make marriage so convenient for themselves? You can't apply something like a like the fast food culture to every aspect of life (Instant gratification, customer is always right). There are reasons for everything and laws for good cause... I'll like to see someone claim they are sinless and able to control their desires or emotions such to the point where they will not need some legal clause to make them think twice about what they are doing. Never mind about the whole thing about keeping your vows to each other (I am being sarcastic).

For me and my family in the near future, I'll take the long way.

[OneLight]

Since marriage licenses came up, I thought I would add this. The marriage license was designed for man, not God. He was plain when HE said that the two will become one, which means the the marriage bed sealed the deal. It is man that required a license, for "legal purposes", I suspect. Here is what I found when looking into when the first recorded license was given in the US.

Form this site, Business Publications. April 18, 1856 --- The first marriage license ever recorded in Shawnee County is issued to John D. Skidmore and Arabella Z. Rice, from Tecumseh. The Rev. W. Bradford performs the marriage ceremony Feb. 24, 1856, but the license isn't recorded until April 8, 1856. Four marriage licenses are issued in 1856 by Judge R.H. Gaw.

Here is more information from a site called mercyseat.net.

Historically, all the states in America had laws outlawing the marriage of blacks and whites. In the mid-1800

[Smalcald]

The marriage bed does not "seal the deal". What is a marriage bed? If you pick someone up at a bar and take them home and mumble that you want to marry and then go to bed you are married, is that the new marriage bed? Please.

What seals the deal is being "given in marriage" according to scripture; this is a lifelong promise made to God by FAMILIES, which of course means a joining of the legal assets and families of two people. Maybe a license is not needed by scripture, I would agree, but it is the easiest way to join the assets and obligations of two people as one. I think if you don't want the government involved that is fine as long as you do the legal needs of combining your assets and retirement and wills and so forth, which is a big pain in the butt.

I am getting a pretty good idea on these boards why evangelicals have such a hard time with marriage and divorce since there seems to be no accepted definition of marriage outside of fornication. So fornication=marriage?

If someone is really in love and serious about marriage vows they would give their spouse the very powerful protections and rights and responsibilities included in that "little piece of paper".

[Blien]

The marriage bed does not "seal the deal". What is a marriage bed? If you pick someone up at a bar and take them home and mumble that you want to marry and then go to bed you are married, is that the new marriage bed? Please.

What seals the deal is being "given in marriage" according to scripture; this is a lifelong promise made to God by FAMILIES, which of course means a joining of the legal assets and families of two people. Maybe a license is not needed by scripture, I would agree, but it is the easiest way to join the assets and obligations of two people as one. I think if you don't want the government involved that is fine as long as you do the legal needs of combining your assets and retirement and wills and so forth, which is a big pain in the butt.

I am getting a pretty good idea on these boards why evangelicals have such a hard time with marriage and divorce since there seems to be no accepted definition of marriage outside of fornication. So fornication=marriage?

If someone is really in love and serious about marriage vows they would give their spouse the very powerful protections and rights and responsibilities included in that "little piece of paper".

I am with you, regardless of what others say or think. In the past before licenses a dowry was given from the father of the groom to the bride's family or the otherway around depending on which culture. This is a big big sign that both families have been joined together as the couple themselves have been joined. There needs to be public witness to the marriage.

[MorningGlory]

You know why you feel like you do, S ?

Because this issue does AFFECT YOUR life.

If it DID then youd be singing a different tune.

That paragraph makes NO sense.....

[MorningGlory]

What seals the deal is being "given in marriage" according to scripture; this is a lifelong promise made to God by FAMILIES, which of course means a joining of the legal assets and families of two people.

aww gee....I guess that means poor Adam was fooling himself into thinking that Eve was his wife...

The FIRST marriage....THAT is Christs example....THAT is what HE returned to. ONE man, ONE woman before God Almighty for life. THAT is marriage. All the rest is simply cereal filler...

Sorry chap, but EVERY marriage in scripture is evidence.

If family were *REQUIRED* for marriage then Im sorry but Adam could NOT have been 'married' to Eve.

Youre simply referencing a passage that talks about marriage and what a man does and making it into some absolute that cannot be what is used to ENTIRELY define the core of marriage.

The CORE of marriage isnt what my FAMILY does with my wifes FAMILY.

The CORE of marriage is MY covenant, MY vow, MY oath to MY wife before God.

That said even in OT Hebrew custom marriage WAS a family matter...it WASNT a government one. The only time the law came into the picture was where crimes like adultery were committed or tossing out ones spouse came into the picture. And that was GODS law, not mans.

I can deal with families being involved with my marriage, tho they ARENT necessary....God help a man who wanted to marry a woman whos family was at war with his own in your world...guess he wouldnt be able to marry her before God..kwim ?

What I cant cope with is believers who try to force godless licensing on the brethren who dont want govt 'permitting' them to marry.

Maybe a license is not needed by scripture, I would agree,

Nuff said....

but it is the easiest way to join the assets and obligations of two people as one.

Ever hear of a little thing in the law called a 'contract' ? How about a 'will' ?

So please, 'easiest' or not there ARE other ways to deal with MOST of the legal issues other than 'licensing'....ie letting godless men 'permit' you to do what GOD HIMSELF has given you RIGHT and AUTHORITY to DO....take a spouse.

I think if you don't want the government involved that is fine as long as you do the legal needs of combining your assets and retirement and wills and so forth, which is a big pain in the butt.

Oh please. Its dangerous in this day and age to not have will to begin with. I speak that from first hand experience. My dad died without one and even with as little as he had it was a complete nightmare settling his affairs.

Its not that complicated to have a lawyer take care of ones assets regardless of how much youd like for it to be made complicated.

People have pretty much been getting married in church or in front of a judge for a long, long time. It sounds as though you have a definite fear of commitment if you don't want to commit in public.

[Smalcald]

If someone is really in love and serious about marriage vows they would give their spouse the very powerful protections and rights and responsibilities included in that "little piece of paper".

Thats right, S.....if we truly love our God and our spouse we should be entirely willing to hand our marriages over to government who hates Him and who, as proven by history, can define 'marriage' in ANY way they see fit....including same gender 'marriages' and flat out racism.

You know what I would find suiting for you ?

Id find it quite suiting if it had been YOU who was trying to marry someone with a different skin color in some state that would have thrown you in jail for it. It would have suited you right to have been madly in love with this person only to find that it was UNLAWFUL by STATE law for you to be with them in marriage.

It would have been VERY Fitting for you, since you love godless govt and their hostile takeover of marriage so much, for YOU to have been the one having to leave your home and all you knew simply because RACIST government then decided that mixed marriages were 'unlawful'

You keep your precious licensing and give your allegience to those who hate God if you will.

I thank God that many in the church are starting to comprehend what marriage actually is to God and that NO man has authority to 'license' it.

I also thank Him that folks like you do not define and decide anything in these matters. HIS word does..

What happens, I wonder, if someone comes into YOUR little world and for whatever reason deems YOUR marraige to be 'unlawful' ?

Let me guess....youre going to DIVORCE because godless govt TELLS you that you are breaking the law in being marriage to your spouse simply because THEY have decided that is the case ?

I hardly think so.

You know why you feel like you do, S ?

Because this issue does AFFECT YOUR life.

If it DID then youd be singing a different tune.

Yeah, you have basically given the argument for gay marriage.

The bottom line is that you can make up whatever promise you want to God, it is still not marriage. You have yet to show the difference between fornication and marriage. How do we know the difference?

Scripture shows that people are given in marriage. It shows a culturally binding legal divorce. The Hebrew was allowed to live under their own law.

My point is simply that the piece of paper you seem to not like so much has tremendous benefits. The reason people don't want it is that it also contains tremendous legal hassles if you end up getting a divorce.