Ugh, you're so close-minded

[MorningGlory]

Humanists do not see Man as divine.

I disagree. If you place Man before God, what else can it be called?

They are not placing God second, Gauntlet. They just don't believe in God. That may seem a terrible thing to you but it doesn't mean they think of themselves as gods. That would be absurd. I ask you to reread the following again:

Humanism features an optimistic attitude about the capacity of people, but it does not involve believing that human nature is purely good or that all people can live up to the Humanist ideals without help. If anything, there is the recognition that living up to one's potential is hard work and requires the assistance of others.

Does that sound as if humanists view Man as divine? I hardly think so.

This claim that Humanists see Man as divine makes no sense. I can see that if you had been taught to think this way, but had never really thought hard about it, you might think it true in an off-handed sort of way. Humanists believe though that Man evolved from apes, and apes from monkeys, and so. Such a philosophy is hardly conducive to thinking of yourself as divine.

It is like the ultimate sacrilege to place yourself over God. I think that is why you tried to foist this accusation on the Humanists. Humanists are not bad people Gaunlet. You need to rethink the way you judge them.

Humanists may not be 'bad' people but they are very deluded and wandering aimlessly toward the pit.

[Gauntlet]

Humanists do not see Man as divine.

I disagree. If you place Man before God, what else can it be called?

They are not placing God second, Gauntlet. They just don't believe in God. That may seem a terrible thing to you but it doesn't mean they think of themselves as gods. That would be absurd. I ask you to reread the following again:

Humanism features an optimistic attitude about the capacity of people, but it does not involve believing that human nature is purely good or that all people can live up to the Humanist ideals without help. If anything, there is the recognition that living up to one's potential is hard work and requires the assistance of others.

Does that sound as if humanists view Man as divine? I hardly think so.

This claim that Humanists see Man as divine makes no sense. I can see that if you had been taught to think this way, but had never really thought hard about it, you might think it true in an off-handed sort of way. Humanists believe though that Man evolved from apes, and apes from monkeys, and so. Such a philosophy is hardly conducive to thinking of yourself as divine.

It is like the ultimate sacrilege to place yourself over God. I think that is why you tried to foist this accusation on the Humanists. Humanists are not bad people Gaunlet. You need to rethink the way you judge them.

What makes them inherently good people, these godless folk?

[MorningGlory]

Humanists may not be 'bad' people but they are very deluded and wandering aimlessly toward the pit.

Perhaps so, at least in your opinion, but they certainly don't believe they are divine, as Gauntlet stated, and that was my point.

I do tend to agree with them, however, I must be careful in what I say I agree with. Humanists have many different opinions and not all will hold to my view on things. I have also read that many Christians consider themselves Humanists. There are two distinctions I believe i) Humanists, and ii) Secular Humanists. There are many elements of the Humanist movement which should find support even with yourself. I think if you looked into it you would find them not deluded about everything -- perhaps only deluded to their position on God.

I don't see myself ever looking into Humanism.

[Gauntlet]

Humanists say "No God is necessary" whch is tantamount to saying "We are as good if not better than any God."

This is what I object to.

[MorningGlory]

Humanists say "No God is necessary" whch is tantamount to saying "We are as good if not better than any God."

This is what I object to.

I object to that too. But I also pity them because those that don't need God will never find Him.

[Gauntlet]

Humanists say "No God is necessary" whch is tantamount to saying "We are as good if not better than any God."

This is what I object to.

I object to that too. But I also pity them because those that don't need God will never find Him.

That is very true.

[Fez]

Humanists say "No God is necessary" whch is tantamount to saying "We are as good if not better than any God."

This is what I object to.

God is not necessary for there to be compassion.

God is not necessary for there to be ethics.

God is not necessary for there to be justice.

God is not necessary for there to be a meaning to ones life.

God is not necessary for there to be love.

God is not necessary for there to be friendship.

God is not necessary for there to be happiness.

The list of things God isn't necessary for goes on and on.

As to whether that makes us as good as God depends on how you define good and God.

Umm, with me God is necessary for all of the above, and so much more. How else could I live?

You cannot "define" God. God is God, He is the great "I Am". But if I were to have a stab at "defining" God I would say my definiton of God is that He is, well, God.

Compassion without God is giving you the choice to decide, should I be compassionate to so and so because I feel like it, or because I am having a good day, or because the morals of the society in which I live so decree? God's compassion is love.

Without God ethics and justice are just law, law devised by man.

Without God, there is no meaning to life, because with God life is everlasting.

God is love, and if you look at the bible you will see the greek definiton of love has seven different meanings. For instance without God can you still love someone that has wronged you, insulted you, stolen from you? With God you can, and must. To be able to do this is so, cleansing, is one word to describe it I suppose.

One can have friends without being saved, and I have friends that are not saved (yet), but I find that the friends which I have within Christ are the first ones I go to with a problem, the ones I enjoy being around the most, the ones who I can tell anything in the strictest of confidence, and the ones I get the best advice from (because it is based on their love of God and His word)

Happiness is fleeting, here today and gone tommorrow. Within God I find Joy and this Joy leads to Grace,and with Grace I can experience compassion, ethics, justice, meaning, love, friendship, and happiness through Him. Having been on the other side of the fence I can tell you that there is no comparison.

Through accepting Jesus and my saviour, and then seeing faith in action, all of the above points stating God is not necessary ..... pale into nothing.

Finally a definition whether that makes us as good as God? Sorry to pop your bubble, but we can never be as good as God! As good as our creator? The bible tells us to strive to be like Jesus, knowing full well that we will fall short, but loving us for trying and trying, and trying.

The world would tell us if we fell short after trying, and trying, and trying, to try something else (thats worldly compassion!), or to give up and move on, or that we were a failure. Jesus says well done, now try again, the answer is here if you just keep looking.

Blessings

[Gauntlet]

Do Muslims actually worship the Kabba itself in the way we think they do? Catholics don't actually worship statues or cookies, despite the rumours.

[MorningGlory]

Humanists say "No God is necessary" whch is tantamount to saying "We are as good if not better than any God."

This is what I object to.

God is not necessary for there to be compassion.

God is not necessary for there to be ethics.

God is not necessary for there to be justice.

God is not necessary for there to be a meaning to ones life.

God is not necessary for there to be love.

God is not necessary for there to be friendship.

God is not necessary for there to be happiness.

The list of things God isn't necessary for goes on and on.

As to whether that makes us as good as God depends on how you define good and God.

Object all you want to but, without God, not one of those things exists nor does the DESIRE for those things. People who are without God are no more enlightened than the cows lying in the field. You are kidding yourself, NC.

[MorningGlory]

Humanists say "No God is necessary" whch is tantamount to saying "We are as good if not better than any God."

This is what I object to.

I object to that too. But I also pity them because those that don't need God will never find Him.

MorningGlory, I think you need to remember that many who are atheist today began life in religious households, as I did. I was raised to believe in God. Even with that close proximity to belief I still fell away, and so have many others. If I, and others, couldn't find him when part of us did believe, what makes you think that our present attitudes about God will make any difference?

When you don't believe in something, you don't experience need for something you know does not exist. (I use the word 'know' realizing it can cause contention, but it is how many atheists feel. Some of course are less certain of this than I am.)

I do realize all of that. But, as I said, those who don't need God will not find Him. There is just something, or a lack of something, within some people that makes them have no need for salvation. It's a very sad thing and no Christian is happy when contemplating the fate of those who reject their Creator. It's not going to end well for you guys. And I just hate the thought.