Homosexuality and evolution

[DC10]

Oh really? That's interesting because at my university we have hundreds of slides showing the dissected brain tissue of over a hundred homosexuals and transsexuals, and almost all of them show a distinct difference from heterosexual brains. Would you like to see the numerous reports and studies? Oh wait you stated earlier that you don't read things like studies or proof.

That's interesting - I wouldn't mind seeing more of this, since everything I have read goes contrary to this. I have read numerous studies that suggest links between brain chemistry but in all cases that I am aware the results have not been repeatable (repeatability being one of the key criteria for the Scientific Method). While I definitely don't agree with Shiloh on many of his points in this regard, I do not think it has been conclusively proven that homosexuals are definitely wired differently.

While I am of course not an expert in this area, I have read the results of many scientific studies on this subject and there are two overriding conclusions from those studies:

• 1- every study has only ever been able to "suggest a possible link" between issue x and homosexuality (ie, we have no "smoking gun" so to speak - no 100% conclusive statement based on evidence).
  2- homosexuality is a complex interaction between both genetics and environment (ie, no single "gay gene", environmental factor, or brain chemistry outweighs another).
  

Shiloh may not want to read the studies or evidence, but there are other members here who would like to see such studies

I agree, although I'm not sure this forum is an appropriate one to pursue this.

Could we perhaps pool our resources?

I've got a list of about half a dozen citations from peer-reviewed (I think) journals I'd be happy to paste to get the ball rolling, although I guess they're already well known to most of you. Can't pretend I've read them myself yet, but Nebula's questions got me curious and these papers were my first trawl.

Is it ok to post the refs? I'm new to the etiquette.

DC10

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

I'll tell you what, this kind of response:

You and other so called Christians would be far happier if you were just honest with yourselves and others and just state that you simply hate gay people.

is out of bounds and quite often gets threads closed.

Keep the bitter comments and personal attacks out of it, please, it is against the terms of service.

Peace,

Dave

[Guest HIS girl]

'Shamrock'

at my university we have hundreds of slides showing the dissected brain tissue of over a hundred homosexuals and transsexuals, and almost all of them show a distinct difference from heterosexual brains.

Wouldn't that be logical and consistent that the brains show a difference considering they aren't behaving/thinking in the same way as a heterosexual would? Doesn't the human body accomodate "changes"? Does it necessarily mean one is "born" that way and the brain is developed like that before birth?

I'm not so sure....

I've heard stories of a certain village where the mothers who upon giving birth rub their newborn's nostrils so as to "mould" the shape of the nose into a thin straight appearance - they do this for quite some time....therefore changing the direction of growth....this could be the same "formula" for the difference in brain for the homosexuals/transexuals......

Whether it's physical or mental stimulation - or a bit of both - this may explain the differences....

Except the adult human brain can't change because the brain does not regenerate cells. That's why brain damage is permanent.

So the "difference" isn't some form of damage showing? The "difference" is actually different looking, that's remarkably opposite to a regular brain? An alcoholics brain is "different" (after death) to a non alcholics brain because of the damage caused - you are obviously suggesting though that one is BORN homosexual?

I don't believe that.

If a homosexual's brain is different, then how can one turn to heterosexuality if their brain is hardwired to homosexuality in the first place? There are countless cases of homosexuals leaving the gay lifestyle in order to live in TRUE heterosexual relationships, never to cross back.

Being hardwired form birth doesn't seem to fit...

[Guest HIS girl]

'Shamrock'

You and other so called Christians would be far happier if you were just honest with yourselves and others and just state that you simply hate gay people.

And this is a totally naiive statement and just goes to show how much you do not have a clue about Christianity and what it means to be a Follower of Christ.

[MorningGlory]

At the risk of getting in trouble I have to say that you have a pretty inflated view of yourself considering how factually wrong you are so often and in such a short amount of time. You make numerous claims about animal behaviorism and homosexual brain structure that are easily and frequently refuted the more we dissect and map the human brain. You also make a lot of spelling errors which normally I ignore but when people boast how smart they are I think it is worth mentioning. You and other so called Christians would be far happier if you were just honest with yourselves and others and just state that you simply hate gay people.

I've never known a Christian that hates gay people but every single one I know hates the sin of homosexuality. Sin is sin in God's eyes and homosexuality is on the same plane as all those disgusting things Shiloh mentioned. It's not our choice, as Christians, but God's. Being an advocate for the abomination of homosexuality puts you there as well, sorry to say.

[Guest shiloh357]

Is that scraping sound I hear that of goal posts being moved? In addition to apes, mallard ducks, parrots and dolphins have all been observed to avoid contact with the same sex and "mate" exclusively with members of the same gender. And besides that I have seen you in the past state that not seeing homosexuality in nature is evidence against it being genetic.

Here is the problem. I am not saying that animals don't engage in the activities you claim. I have never denied that. What I am denying is that their motive is "homosexual" or based on romantic attraction, which is a major component with human homosexuality.

And Christians wonder why homosexuals don't listen to them

I know exactly why. For the same reason most sinners won't listen to the truth. The Bible is offensive to those who live in sin.

Your knowledge of zoology and genetics is pretty sorely lacking and I suggest you stop making scientific assertions until you learn something about the subject.

Except that I have not made any truly "genetic" arguments.

As a victim of sexual abuse I also want to say on a personal note that I am outraged that a so called christian would lump child rape along with the actions of consenting adults.

They are sin. In that sense, homosexuality, adultery, incest, all forms of sexual abuse are sin. Like it or not, that is truth.

Do you have any limits at all? When Christ tells you "I never knew you" would you argue with him then as well?

Actually, given your posts, that is in argument I fear YOU will be engaging in, not me.

Oh really? That's interesting because at my university we have hundreds of slides showing the dissected brain tissue of over a hundred homosexuals and transsexuals, and almost all of them show a distinct difference from heterosexual brains. Would you like to see the numerous reports and studies? Oh wait you stated earlier that you don't read things like studies or proof.

The problem is that I know and know of homosexuals who have found Christ and have been delievered from homosexuality for several years and have not even the slightest desire to return. Many have gone on to marry and even enter the ministry as Pastors, worship leaders as so forth. The lives that I have seen transformed by the power of blood of Jesus and His work on the cross far and away outshines your so-called "science."

At the risk of getting in trouble I have to say that you have a pretty inflated view of yourself considering how factually wrong you are so often and in such a short amount of time.

No, I just know ridiculous, nonsensical arguments when I see them. Expecting me to understand human behavior via the animal kingdom is just contrary to commonsense. We have sunk to a new depth of depravity when we feel we can justify sin and depraved behavior by trying to find it in the animal kingdom.

Furthermore, since mankind did not "evolve" from the animal kingdom, it is foolhearty to expect the animal kingdom to shed any light on man's condition. The Bible makes it very clear what man's problem is: Sin. Man is morally and spiritually separated from God. He is spiritually cut off from the only source of spiritual Life in the universe. Until mankind seeks after God and allows Christ to cleanse him of his sin, mankind is sliding down a greased pole straight into hell.

When you die, and you step out into eternity, all the science in the world won't matter. Nothing of this world will matter. The only thing you take with you when you die, is the decision you made about Jesus. All the charity, all the "religion" none of that will avail you. The only question that will be asked is "what did you do with Jesus?" It is not a question anyone can afford to get wrong.

That is why I don't waste time on silly arguments based on trying to justify a particular human behavior by trying to find an ape or a chimp or whatever that does the same the thing. People like you really cannot see just how pointless and meaningless and how utterly foolish it is.

Science is not the answer to the problem of sin, and one should certainly not treat science as an alternative to what the Bible teaches us about mankind and the human condition. Science if anything teaches more about the sinful condition of man, the more advanced we get in areas of technology.

You make numerous claims about animal behaviorism and homosexual brain structure that are easily and frequently refuted the more we dissect and map the human brain.

I have really not said that much beyond what I have observed.

You also make a lot of spelling errors which normally I ignore but when people boast how smart they are I think it is worth mentioning.

I am not writing a thesis, so I don't worry about it. People just read past it.

You and other so called Christians would be far happier if you were just honest with yourselves and others and just state that you simply hate gay people.

No, I hate homosexuality. I am friends with and work with gay people all of the time. The problem is that I care enough about them to tell them the truth. And I have. They know where I stand, but they also know that I don't ostracize them and while we disagree, they always come to me for prayer when their lives get messed up.

You really don't know anything about me or the people I come into contact with.

"Reforming" one's behavior won't work. Only complete deliverance through the blood of Jesus can cure a person of homosexuality completely. Not ONE of the people I know or know of that has truly found Christ has returned to their old ways.

Many will assent to the Christian religion, but if they don't find Christ, they WILL resort back to their old ways. Human will is not powerful enough on its own to overcome the spiritual/denomic bondage that exists within a homosexual lifestyle and indeed the homosexual community.

[Guest shiloh357]

I respect myself too much to argue about alleged "homosexual apes."

Not alleged, Shiloh. This is one thing that you can learn from me. You won't take my word for it, so just look it up. You will see I am right.

No, they are not homosexual. You are trying assign human behavior and motives to animals, which shows why I cannot really take this issue seriously and why I simply refuse debate it. It is not worth a serious debate.

Time to take off your blinders Shiloh.

I know you will think my position ridiculous, but really Shiloh, what solid evidence have you provided to show that I am wrong about evolution?

That's just it. I have not provided any. Again, I am not trying debate you on this issue. You are trying to have a debate with me based on a premise that I will not lower myself to entertain. Again, your position is beneath my intelligence to a degree that I cannot take it seriously, much less enage it in a serious debate.

I was trying to have a discussion and you were intent only on ridicule. I see no point in carrying on. I have never encountered such hubris.

I told you I was not interested, but you presisted. I did not "ridicule" you. I simply refuse to engage in foolish debates that are nothing but a waste of time. When you want to have an intelligent debate on intelligent material, let me know.

[Guest shiloh357]

No hard feelings.

No, no hard feelings. You're smart guy. Too smart to waste it on this type of stuff.

[ParanoidAndroid]

I've never known a Christian that hates gay people but every single one I know hates the sin of homosexuality. Sin is sin in God's eyes and homosexuality is on the same plane as all those disgusting things Shiloh mentioned. It's not our choice, as Christians, but God's. Being an advocate for the abomination of homosexuality puts you there as well, sorry to say.

I see what you're saying, but to play Devil's Advocate I have never seen a Christian single out a heterosexual about their premarital sex life. To use an example, I was helping out with a Youth Group a few years back, and one of the issues in our young people there was that of premarital sex. While we were there to give the Bible's view on the issue, we knew most of them weren't Christian - it was a matter of sharing the gospel when and as we could, while drawing a line in the sand to sin (not just premarital sex, but other forms of sin that these young people were engaging in).

I wonder whether the actions of the leadership team would have been the same had one or more of the members been having homosexual sex instead of simply heterosexual premarital sex. Since the issue never arose it's a matter of speculation, but going on observations since then I cannot help but feel the reactions would have been different - and much harsher than the response to the situation as it was (would we have spoken about other sins to them, or focused solely on homosexuality?).

Just my observations, of course - whether intended or not, many Christians do seem to single out homosexuality as somehow different than other forms of sin and immorality

[Guest shiloh357]

Just my observations, of course - whether intended or not, many Christians do seem to single out homosexuality as somehow different than other forms of sin and immorality

No they don't, but if it is something you are hyper-sensitive too, then you will naturally notice it more. I have never heard any preacher claim that the sin of homosexuality was worse or in any way different than hetrosexual sin.