Homosexuality and evolution

[Guest HIS girl]

'Shamrock'

Are you actually suggesting that self-induced brain damage via alcohol is the same as abnormal neurological pathways in homosexuals and transsexuals?

HIS girl- Well it was kinda what I was getting at - that the difference in brain was more due to "self infliction" than genetic. Do you see what I'm saying?

If homosexuality WAS indeed "normal", then I'm sure it would be accepted in most cultures as such - but we know this ISN'T the case. Homosexuality has been looked down upon for many years and in many cultures...even those who do practise the gay lifestyle at some point did so with unease...and not entirely because of the way society disapproves but more of an in built feeling that this isn't normal and is wrong....

[Guest shiloh357]

If homosexuality WAS indeed "normal", then I'm sure it would be accepted in most cultures as such - but we know this ISN'T the case.

Even here in the US, homosexuality is not widely accepted even by nonChristians as "normal." The American culture generally tolerates and protects the rights of homosexuals as citzens, but the majoriy do not consider it normal and do NOT want their children to become gay or to be indoctrinated by the far left that homosexuality is just as normal and acceptable as hetrosexuality.

Opposition to homosexuality is painted by the left as a religious fundamental position, but it is in actually, opposed by many nonChristians as well.

Pro gay activists really are minority. The liberal media does its best to to give them a voice and to make it appear that the pro-gay movement is represents mainstream views and values, but it is really just an illusion.

[Guest HIS girl]

'shiloh357'

Opposition to homosexuality is painted by the left as a religious fundamental position, but it is in actually, opposed by many nonChristians as well.

Pro gay activists really are minority. The liberal media does its best to to give them a voice and to make it appear that the pro-gay movement is represents mainstream views and values, but it is really just an illusion.

You are so right on these points.

On the surface it may appear accepted in mainstream Western society but dig a bit deeper and homosexuality is still taboo in most cultures. This is universal -

[Guest]

Are you actually suggesting that self-induced brain damage via alcohol is the same as abnormal neurological pathways in homosexuals and transsexuals? I can't tell you why some people change their sexual outlook, although I can tell you studies show that the vast majority of "reformed gays" go back to their gay orientation....

Some Think They Know The Heart Of Men

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Jeremiah 17:9-10

Hiding Sins Behind Tissue Samples

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

James 1:13-15

Denying The Light Of Jesus

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 3:18-21

Accusing The Creator

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

James 1:17

Foolish Choices

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Matthew 12:30

Really

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:36

[DC10]

"i) A chimp was given a pile of photos of people and chimps and was instructed to sort the images into two piles: one of chimps and one of people. It was no real surprise that the chimp succeeded in the task but to the researcher's astonishment the chimp put its own photo with that of the humans."

That's really entertaining. Can you give the reference, please?

It is one of the few things I remembers from The Ape People, 1971, by Geoffrey H. Bourne. I found the following on the Internet:

Geoffrey H. Bourne was a researcher, educator, editor and author best known for his research on nutrition and primates. As a researcher, he worked as a biologist and biochemist in England at various universities. As an educator, Geoffrey taught at the University of London and at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia. As an editor and author, he wrote numerous books and editorials on the nutrition and dietary habits of primates.

I looked up the incident in the book and apparently this particular chimp always placed pictures of itself in the pile with people. It would do this every time it was instructed to sort images of people and chimps. Bourne also wrote of a chimp at a research facility that developed the habit of smoking cigarettes. Those two stories are about all I remember from the book. I read it in 1972.

Is it the basis for your comment on the self-awareness of chimps?

No. I have read more on apes since reading Bourne's book. I find them fascinating. If I am not mistaken, Bourne may have written this book before Bonobos became generally recognized as a separate species. The other stories I told come from other sources.

Chimps are one of the few animals, beside humans, that recognize reflections in mirrors as themselves. Also, it has been repeatedly demonstrated that three year old humans and chimps of the same age perform equally well on intelligence tests. I think I've got the age right. Anyone who claims that chimps are mere animals must then erroneously believe that three year old human children are no more intelligent than mere animals. I have a problem, also, with making a statement such as "mere animals". Anyone who even bothers to think about this must realize that there is a difference between the intelligence of a shrew and an elephant. Not all species demonstrate the same intelligence, and chimps clearly exhibit many behaviours that we see in humans.

Thank you. I agree with all you say.

I'm reminded of a comment from, I think, Ernst Mayr, when asked "where does human consciousness come from?" He replied immediately "animal consciousness!!".

Shame he wasn't asked about human sexuality.

[Shiloh62]

"i) A chimp was given a pile of photos of people and chimps and was instructed to sort the images into two piles: one of chimps and one of people. It was no real surprise that the chimp succeeded in the task but to the researcher's astonishment the chimp put its own photo with that of the humans."

That's really entertaining. Can you give the reference, please?

It is one of the few things I remembers from The Ape People, 1971, by Geoffrey H. Bourne. I found the following on the Internet:

Geoffrey H. Bourne was a researcher, educator, editor and author best known for his research on nutrition and primates. As a researcher, he worked as a biologist and biochemist in England at various universities. As an educator, Geoffrey taught at the University of London and at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia. As an editor and author, he wrote numerous books and editorials on the nutrition and dietary habits of primates.

I looked up the incident in the book and apparently this particular chimp always placed pictures of itself in the pile with people. It would do this every time it was instructed to sort images of people and chimps. Bourne also wrote of a chimp at a research facility that developed the habit of smoking cigarettes. Those two stories are about all I remember from the book. I read it in 1972.

Is it the basis for your comment on the self-awareness of chimps?

No. I have read more on apes since reading Bourne's book. I find them fascinating. If I am not mistaken, Bourne may have written this book before Bonobos became generally recognized as a separate species. The other stories I told come from other sources.

Chimps are one of the few animals, beside humans, that recognize reflections in mirrors as themselves. Also, it has been repeatedly demonstrated that three year old humans and chimps of the same age perform equally well on intelligence tests. I think I've got the age right. Anyone who claims that chimps are mere animals must then erroneously believe that three year old human children are no more intelligent than mere animals. I have a problem, also, with making a statement such as "mere animals". Anyone who even bothers to think about this must realize that there is a difference between the intelligence of a shrew and an elephant. Not all species demonstrate the same intelligence, and chimps clearly exhibit many behaviours that we see in humans.

Also, it ist true that apes arethe only animals that make a concieentious effort tp communicate wit hhumans? Most, if not all other anmals ,when faced with a mirror,either becaome scared of the other image, or try to attack it.

[The Lorax]

I was wondering from those of you here who are more science-minded.

Would you say that homosexuality makes evolutionary sense, or that its prevalence would lead to the end of the species?

What I mean is - if an isolated population of a species had more same-sex coupling than heterosexual, how long would this population survive?

For the same-sex couples would not be reproducing. And the number of child-bearing animals would be less. So, how many generations would it be before there are not enough descendants to keep the population going?

I love science. Let me give this a shot.

It's true homosexuality is a maladaptive trait, from a biological standpoint. Obviously a population that was 100% homosexual would produce zero offspring. If homosexuality were a genetic trait, I think it would have been eliminated long ago. But I don't think homosexuality is a genetic trait; I think it is something else entirely.

I am an identical twin. That is to say, I shared a womb with a person whose genome is the same as mine. We could be called "clones," except that natural twins are *more* similar than artificial clones.

I am left-handed. Greg is right-handed.

Since we are genetically identical, right/left-handedness cannot be a genetic trait. If it were, it would be impossible that I'm left handed.

I've heard different numbers, but apparently about 1 out of 8 people is left handed. Similarly, roughly 1 out of 8 people is homosexual.

I think homosexuality is a congenital condition not unlike left-handedness. It's not genetic, but it's not a choice either. That's the only explanation that makes sense to me. What are the biological underpinnings there? Beats me.

[Guest shiloh357]

But I don't think homosexuality is a genetic trait; I think it is something else entirely.

God says it is sin. It is spiritual bondage and the cure for homosexuality is Jesus.