Alcohol

[Servant54]

The next time you see red wine in a cup/glass repeat this COMMANDMENT and tell the person offering the cup " no thank you", I am not allowed to look on the wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup. Its against my religion.

It still doesn't say don't drink it. It says don't gaze upon it. I can't recall ever gazing upon red wine anyway, so I'm okay. Again, with 230 references to the word 'wine', why isn't there at least one, where it tells us not to drink it?

And I can't imagine ever using the phrase "It is against my religion" That phrase is for Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs etc, etc, etc. N

We could ask that question about a bunch of bible topics..it is a good question. Like whether it is ok to have more than one wife..all those OT patriarchs having multiplied wives and only a few scriptures dealing with it. It is frustrating but that is how it is.

One reason might be so we would not hit new converts over the head with it and give them time to com out of a worldly life style.

The Berians would not have been noted as noble if everything was listed like the ten commandments

Remeber the word of God is not a law book..it is here a little and there a little that we get a whole truth...amen?

"It is against my religion" was tongue in cheek

[Shiloh62]

I realize that I am only just now entering the discussion and apologize for having NOT read the entire discussion.

Somone or some many may have already made the distinction I am about to make, if so I apologize for repeating what has already been said once, or possibly many times.

Having myself been both the victim OF alcholic related abuses, and the perpitrator OF alcohlioic related abuses against others, I believe I can state through experience that when considering the matter of then consumption of alcholic beverages one must considerate of not only that the practice does FOR them personally but especially HOW that habit will ultimately effect others around them.

An alcoholic will be the last to admit that he, or she actually has a problem, most will deny any possible addiction, often relating THAT bondage to those who partake of drugs, and too often the realization that one is addicted to alcohol comes only when a physical sickness related TO the alcohol addiction has been diagnosed and there is no hope of recovery from that ailment.

From the age of 10 years old to 38 years old I was an alcholic, from the age of 15 years old to 38 years old I was a drug addict there are many reputable programs where individuals can receive help for their addictions, in my own case I could not, and would not allow others into my life to see WHY I became an alcholic/drug addict so I never allowed myself to be an active participant in any of these programs.

My deliverance came ONLY through Jesus Christ.

Now I sadly regret to say that my 24 year old son is trapped in the same bondage that I was trapped in for so many long years BUT he is IN Gods hands as my wife and I HAVE given HIM to God and have placed our faith in Gods ability to eventually save our son.

Michael

It took me a minute to realize I too had a problem, I stopped 10 years ago and never looked back,AND have never been happier.

[Guest LadyC]

but, and it is important to recognize this little fact, alcohol is not problematic for all people. nor is it forbidden all people.

[Shiloh62]

but, and it is important to recognize this little fact, alcohol is not problematic for all people. nor is it forbidden all people.

I forbid myself.

[Guest LadyC]

given that you have a history of abusing alcohol, forbidding yourself is a wise thing! and i would imagine that you'd quickly feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit should you break that vow... which would indicate that God has forbidden it of you as well.

but there are those who would be quick to point the finger at someone else, perhaps me, for not being forbidden (either by God or by my own choice) from having a drink. they can't understand why something that is so obviously forbidden of THEM could be permissible to someone else. see what i'm saying?

[Smalcald]

Also all Christians agree that ever getting drunk is a sin, we just have a minor disagreement whether any alcohol at all is a sin.

Now after reading this discussion as a Christian I really am thinking about if my having a beer or a glass of wine with dinner is causing others to stumble? It has given me something to ponder, so thank you to those who have made the abstinence argument. If giving up cheesecake would help other Christians I would do it in a minute, so how about alcohol?

[Servant54]

Servant: I asked Axxman to give me his translations on the following but maybe you would like to do that. Let me ask what you would pick for each of the following verses and why?

A]

Psalm 4:7

Thou hast put gladness in my heart, more than in the time that their corn and their wine increased.

Wine or grape juice and why?

B]

Psalm 4:6-8 (in Context) Psalm 4 (Whole Chapter)

Psalm 104:15

And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.

Wine or grape juice and why?

C}

Proverbs 31:6

Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

Proverbs 31:5-7 (in Context) Proverbs 31 (Whole Chapter)

Wine or grape juice and why?

D]

Ecclesiastes 2:3

I sought in mine heart to give myself unto wine, yet acquainting mine heart with wisdom; and to lay hold on folly, till I might see what was that good for the sons of men, which they should do under the heaven all the days of their life.

Wine or grapejuice and why?

E]

Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.

Ecclesiastes 9:6-8 (in Context) Ecclesiastes 9 (Whole Chapter)

Jeremiah 23:9

Wine or grapejuice and why?

A] new wine was a staple, like oil or grain so it was wonderful to have increase of staples (non alcoholic)

B] this speaks of grape juice I believe, wine harvest was thrilling for them, to have new fresh wine.

Other places the bible refers people making merry with alcoholic wine. (See next post about Merry)

C] I already answered this earlier but will do so again..

There are two cases

1}Perishing and 2} Heavy heart.

It says to give them wine/strong drink "SO THAT THEY MAY FORGET". It implies they are so drunk they do not remember.

These are extreme cases like some wounded in battle that is dying in great pain..give him alcohol to knock him out..that is God's mercy. We do this now days with drugs.

The second case is a woman perhaps who's three young sons have died in a battle..she has been up three days stricken with grief and they give her alcohol to put her out and let her sleep..finally.

Any other interpretation would hurt moderate drinkers case, in that you can not be drinking to forget as an every day event..these are medical cases.

D] Solomon in Ecclesiastes is backslid. He is most likely drinking alcohol and going against plain text of scripture for Kings not to drink,,,,and this is why...he is giving wrong counsel. Here he says all sorts of wrong things 2;12 I turned, 2:17 I hated life, 2:20I turned my heart.

Read Song of Solomon where he is not backslid and says "drink deep friends (5:1)(grape juice or alcohol?), here he is typifying Jesus the greater Solomon and offering salvation to all who will come to the wedding..no extra charge..I was getting off subject preaching .

E)I believe Ecc 9:7 is just grape juice. (see next post) Sol is giving us advise he himself DID NOT FOLLOW 9:9 He did not live with THE wife, he had many and it destroyed him like his wine did.

yes I see Jer. 23:9 and He says I am LIKE a drunk man..yes this is alcoholic wine...I am not sure why you bring up this scripture other than to prove there is alcoholic wine mentioned in scripture..something we all agree on.

Ok that is it for today..three hours and a visit from the neighbor

[Servant54]

A teaching on making merry with wine.

The present day idea of many Christian's is anyone who drank and made merry or was made merry in the bible was under the influence of an intoxicant. The alcohol made them merry. So the wine mentioned in the text along side the merriment must have been alcoholic wine.

Is there a case for believing that plain grape juice, the blood of the grape in its purest form could be the reason their hearts were gladdened or made merry?

To find out we go to the scriptures and the first story we have is Joseph and his brothers eating in Egypt and it says " So they drank and were merry with him"

Ben got five time the servings as his brothers. Although we see Ben getting five time what his brothers did, it does not specify whether they drank alcoholic wine or plain grape juice. This scripture is an example of many in the OT..it is just not conclusive either way what they were drinking, alcoholic type wine or grape juice type wine.

Lets go to the second scripture and see if it changes the readers mind about the first scripture and perhaps others.

In Judges 9:27 it says "they gathered grapes from the vineyards and trod them and MADE MERRY." ......"they ate and drank and cursed Abimelech"

Fourteen verses back it says "But the vine says to them "Should I cease my NEW WINE Which CHEERS both God and men?

I would say it would be pretty easy to see they drank the fresh juice from the grapes they trod and made merry with it and that the new wine spoken of here is just fresh grape juice.

So these are the first couple scriptures in a bible of many scripture which talk about the subject of wine and merriment, and I believe they set the tone for most of the OT scriptures.

There maybe exceptions to this, but of course alcoholic wine too makes the heart merry (Noah and Lot were no doubt merry before their embarrassments happened.) My point is only that it does not always HAVE to be alcoholic wine that makes the heart merry in biblical accounts , non alcoholic grape juice wine can also make the heart merry.

We must also remember that in many bible stories God's people were very backslid, so what they did or did not do is not a presidence for New Testament, modern day saints.

__

Edited May 13, 2009 by Servant54

[kat8585]

that being said, i suspect that exrockstar was being a little facetious when he asked about drinking with pretzels... a bit of light hearted humour that may not have been the best joke to make!

i see nothing wrong with having an occasional drink. i see plenty wrong with someone drinking as a means of escape, or to party, or to whatever. and while many christians may condemn me if i have a margarita with my fajitas, i'm quite comfortable knowing that God doesn't mind a bit.

an occasional drink is fine.

using good judgment is the key.

Alcoholics can't use good judgment, and you don't know if you're an acloholic til you drink.

[Guest LadyC]

there is no doubt that alcohol abuse and/or addiction is epidemic in our country. i'm not disputing that by any stretch of the imagination. what i am saying is that people should not jump to the conclusion that all individuals who have an occasional drink are abusing it or are dependent on it, nor should those who do not drink (for whatever reason) stand in judgment of those who have an occasional glass of wine (or draft beer or margarita or whatever.)