Alcohol

[Servant54]

Isaiah 25:6

6 On this mountain the LORD Almighty will prepare

a feast of rich food for all peoples,

a banquet of aged wine

[Smalcald]

Look at Numbers. Here wine is shown to be indeed fermented, not grape juice, which I can find no mention of in all of scripture. But also it is shown that yes there are times that God commanded people to abstain from all wine, but as shown below there were times that it would be allowed. But there are hundreds of references to wine in both the New and Old testaments. The substance was as common as grain and often used as barter or for offerings and sacrifice. But scripture has been consistent from the beginning never drink to get drunk that is not the purpose of wine and it is a sin to do so.

Smalcald...just because ONE scripture points out that the "wine" in that reference was ferminted...doesn't make all wine ferminted.

Even in the English language the word "wine" was defined as ferminted or unferminted until the 1950's. It has been that way throughout history in many, many cultures. In the bible it is the same way, the word "wine" can be either/or. In the case of the scripture in Numbers the author defined specifically that he was referring to alcoholic wine and grape juice.

Ironically...in this case the author chose to use the word "yayin" to denote the ferminted wine in this case. "Yayin" is definitely a generic term and happens to be the same word he used for the wine vinegar in the same sentence. Now here comes the ironic part...the word he used for grape juice is "mishrah" and it is defined as juice in the bible...but "mishrah" is also a liquor. So we have words that could be translated juice in other contexts being used to mean ferminted drink...and a word that can be liquor, used to describe juice.

It is true. In fact I just pulled that passage randomly. My point was simply that there are hundreds and hundreds of references to wine in the bible and often fermented wine, it was part of their culture and diet. It was no big deal unless you abused it. So that one passage would hold the same weight as those other one passages from any other place in the OT.

[artsylady]

The word "AGED" is not in the Hebrew, it is only an opinion of the translator. A poor opinion in this case.

This kind of causes this argument to fall apart as its KEY word is not even in the original scriptures.

Here is how KJV translators and other translations render the verse..

And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

Lees are the pulp and skins and such at the bottom of the juice, there are more lees in the juice right after the harvest(the best wine/juice and then the process of pouring them off begins to keep them from perverting the pure juice.

If juice is allowed to settle on its lees it becomes sour over time, it must be poured from vessel to vessel to stay pure. (Jer 48:11, Zep 1:12)

What a glorious truth..we as the pure juice here are to be poured from vessel to vessel, we must not settle on the lees.

It's a poor translation in your opinion and the opinion of others that are like-minded, although I doubt they are trained Biblical or language scholars. So you are saying they should have inserted the word "new" and made a mistake and wrote the very opposite word "old"?

In any case, you can find references to 'new wine' in a negative connotation too.

[artsylady]

And back to the main question, with literally hundreds of references to wine, if alcoholic wine was something believers needed to abstain from, why did God never make this clear, like He did with sexual sin, unforgiveness, judgementalism etc, etc, etc. There are far fewer references to these other kinds of things yet the message of what he wants from us was clearly spoken. Why is it not the same with wine? With hundreds of references, if it was wrong to drink it, you would think at least one verse would have said "don't drink wine", yet we don't see this. We see warnings of drinking too much and references that it can be good depending on the context, but no outright laws against it anywhere, except to two Nazarites.

[MorningGlory]

And back to the main question, with literally hundreds of references to wine, if alcoholic wine was something believers needed to abstain from, why did God never make this clear, like He did with sexual sin, unforgiveness, judgementalism etc, etc, etc. There are far fewer references to these other kinds of things yet the message of what he wants from us was clearly spoken. Why is it not the same with wine? With hundreds of references, if it was wrong to drink it, you would think at least one verse would have said "don't drink wine", yet we don't see this. We see warnings of drinking too much and references that it can be good depending on the context, but no outright laws against it anywhere, except to two Nazarites.

Who were the two Nararites? I can't remember this.....

[artsylady]

Samson and John the Baptist.

[Smalcald]

And back to the main question, with literally hundreds of references to wine, if alcoholic wine was something believers needed to abstain from, why did God never make this clear, like He did with sexual sin, unforgiveness, judgementalism etc, etc, etc. There are far fewer references to these other kinds of things yet the message of what he wants from us was clearly spoken. Why is it not the same with wine? With hundreds of references, if it was wrong to drink it, you would think at least one verse would have said "don't drink wine", yet we don't see this. We see warnings of drinking too much and references that it can be good depending on the context, but no outright laws against it anywhere, except to two Nazarites.

Also Jacob did not take wine or meat or rich food when he was in captivity in Egypt and of course it made him strong to only eat a good diet.

I don't know I do think there are many times and many places when we are called to abstain from all fermented beverages.

The problem for me is that I think if you are searching for a reason to drink in scripture or an excuse to drink in scripture than you should not drink as you see it as something sinful and probably will do it in a sinful way, for you it is sinful in that case.

[artsylady]

Also Jacob did not take wine or meat or rich food when he was in captivity in Egypt and of course it made him strong to only eat a good diet.

Was this his choice or did God make it clear that he was forbidden during this time? And why only this time?

I

don't know I do think there are many times and many places when we are called to abstain from all fermented beverages.

You mean in the Bible? Where? I think also priests were forbidden from alcohol when they were in the holiest of holies.

The problem for me is that I think if you are searching for a reason to drink in scripture or an excuse to drink in scripture than you should not drink as you see it as something sinful and probably will do it in a sinful way, for you it is sinful in that case.

I would agree.

[exrockstar]

That is just it, Crown and Coke would be an example of drinking that would be a problem. It does not go with food, it is high in alc. content and I have never seen it outside of a party or a bar. I have never seen anyone sit down to a nice meal and order a Crown and Coke to go with their steak or seafood.

For us to use alc. in a non-sinful way it must not be seen as a way or path to get drunk.

what if i order a crown and coke and munched on pretzels?

technically i am accompanying food with my drink.

[artsylady]

Pretzels? Yuck.