Alcohol

[William2384]

Its not what goes into a man that defiles him its what comes out...... ask the person whos drinking... or ask an alcoholic thats in recovery they will give you great insight because the alcoholic knows there are people who drink and revolve their entire life around it and people who can social drink and not get drunk or need it. two types? which path is in your heart is the question you ask yourself.... dont impose on your girlfriend because of your own fears. With Gods Love.....

[pokemaughan]

Have you read the description of 'lees'? It's just gross.

Is it a 'dangerous game' to substitute the word 'aged' to 'lees'?

The goal of the translator is to find the most appropriate and accurate word or phrase without using an idiom or word that wouldn't make sense in English.

I didn't personally translate any of it. The scribes of King James did.

My point is that making claims one way or the other on the intentions of a particular translation of a word is dangerous when you yourself don't even know how to translate!

To put it in more simple terms...

Imagine two sheets of music, both are interpretations of a particular song. Now imagine that you have no idea how to read music- but you claim that the first sheet is probably right.

Hmm...

[artsylady]

My point is that making claims one way or the other on the intentions of a particular translation of a word is dangerous when you yourself don't even know how to translate!

Think about this. King Jame's translator's probably never had a problem with wine being what it is. The move to have wine changed to grape juice was started by the puritans probably as a response to too much drunken debauchery in the middle ages, long after Christ. The puritans came to America and coincidentally, the original AMERICAN standard Bible had the word 'fruit of the lees', instead of aged wine.

Incidentally, the NEW American standard Bible has it changed back again to 'aged wine". You can check it out yourself on Biblegateway.com

[pokemaughan]

Think about this. King Jame's translator's probably never had a problem with wine being what it is. The move to have wine changed to grape juice was started by the puritans probably as a response to too much drunken debauchery in the middle ages, long after Christ. The puritans came to America and coincidentally, the original AMERICAN standard Bible had the word 'fruit of the lees', instead of aged wine.

Incidentally, the NEW American standard Bible has it changed back again to 'aged wine". You can check it out yourself on Biblegateway.com

Hmm, okay.

The only reason I tell you it's a dangerous statement is because from what I've been learning recently, speculations usually get destroyed by facts foremost. I've been learning it's best to do some if not lots of research before I make a claim... especially a claim related to translation...

I don't mean any quarrel, by the way.

[Guest LadyC]

from what i've read, artsy has been doing her research quite thoroughly.

[Shiloh62]

Paul warned of 'drunkeness'....

Romans 13:13

13Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.

also in Titus...

Titus 1:7

7Since an overseer[a] is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless

[pokemaughan]

from what i've read, artsy has been doing her research quite thoroughly.

Yes I agree completely!

The only point I have to speak up against is when someone says something regarding translational issues. Making claims that only have grounds in speculation, as opposed to fact (especially concerning the original languages/words and their respective definitions and so on) just don't hold up. Again, this is something I've realized very recently after watching Bible scholars and apologetics debate various things related to doctrine and the ancient manuscripts. These guys know their stuff- and claims that aren't based in some sort of tangible fact, and aren't supported by a working knowledge of the language are chewed full of holes very quickly.

The reason I tell artsy this is merely because I wouldn't want her to get floored by someone who knows these things. I can't imagine what it's like for someone to call your bluff in matters of interpretation and translation...

And the main main reason I'm so adamant about this is because I'm starting to study the original languages, and my eyes are being opened to a whole new world on these issues.

If I'm off-base here, I apologize.

With all this new knowledge I'm absorbing, I'm very prone to being arrogant and disrespectful... but I try really hard not to!!

Just fwap me on the nose if I'm being rude.

[Servant54]

Artsylady what are you doing to me?

I was supposed to have a day off today between work yesterday and street evangelism tomorrow and now you have given me all this rebuttal work!

I will answer all of your claims, I have heard/read them before and there is an excellent answer for ALL of them..it just might take a few days as it would probably advantageous that I do some work around the yard and such in the next few days.

You have brought many great points and have obviously been studying/read...something we all need to do more about what we believe. I admire you for that, maybe next time you can be on my side of the debate

Bare in mind I am not trying to win some theological argument or the sake of being right or whatever, I believe there is a major area of misunderstanding we all have had concerning this topic in the bible. It is huge like a huge ship and it takes time to turn the ship so it is headed in the right direction. Our youth need to know this truth,that is why I studied it out and found answers.

I will not argue doctrines for arguing sake. I want to see lives changed when brought truth.

God bless everyone here..we all want truth..amen?

Lord we call upon you to reveal YOUR truth..open us up..keep us humble.

[Shiloh62]

from what i've read, artsy has been doing her research quite thoroughly.

Yes I agree completely!

The only point I have to speak up against is when someone says something regarding translational issues. Making claims that only have grounds in speculation, as opposed to fact (especially concerning the original languages/words and their respective definitions and so on) just don't hold up. Again, this is something I've realized very recently after watching Bible scholars and apologetics debate various things related to doctrine and the ancient manuscripts. These guys know their stuff- and claims that aren't based in some sort of tangible fact, and aren't supported by a working knowledge of the language are chewed full of holes very quickly.

The reason I tell artsy this is merely because I wouldn't want her to get floored by someone who knows these things. I can't imagine what it's like for someone to call your bluff in matters of interpretation and translation...

And the main main reason I'm so adamant about this is because I'm starting to study the original languages, and my eyes are being opened to a whole new world on these issues.

If I'm off-base here, I apologize.

With all this new knowledge I'm absorbing, I'm very prone to being arrogant and disrespectful... but I try really hard not to!!

Just fwap me on the nose if I'm being rude.

On a side note here, but I want to learn Hebrew so that I can look at the original Torah and read it-is Roseeta Stone a good way to learn a language, or what would you suggest for me?

[Servant54]

Your whole idea about this scripture giving credence to your belief based on the word "aged" and it simply has been made up.

I didn't make it up. I checked on Biblegateway.com and many translation use the word "aged".

We just have wine on lees...period. We have no aged wine here. It appeared to be a great argument it just did not hold up to scrutiny.

I am quite sure that according to some scholars out there, the word 'aged' is appropriate, otherwise the word 'aged' would not be used.

I just can't get past God serving up something He calls "A MOCKER" in the Millennium. (Pro 20:1)

Do you think if you have one glass of wine you will become a mocker? Is that your experience?

Yes, I realize someone believed they had aged wine so they added a word "AGED"

We do not want to be in a position to "help God" with His word, if "Aged" is not in the Hebrew than we should not add it..period.

No one glass of wine will not mock you..but no one has ever been mocked until they have that first glass now have they?

So in conclusion "Aged" is a mistranslation.