Alcohol

[Guest man]

Where does Communion fall into all of this?

Anyone want to answer this?

If consuming alcohol is a sin, are people sinning when they participate in communion?

do you mean are they really sinning in the eyes of God? or are you asking a rhetorical question about whether they are sinning in the eyes of some who are involved in this debate?

I want one of the individuals who claims that consuming alcohol is a sin to answer my question.

[Servant54]

Definition of fruit of the lees.

Lees: (tasting term). The heavy sediment in a wine fermenting in a vat or barrel and consisting of dead yeast cells and other solid matter such as grape skins, pulp and seeds. Exposure to the lees imparts flavor and body to a wine. Hence, aging a wine on the lees (sur lie), and stirring it occasionally, increases flavor and body. Wine is separated from the lees by the process of

[pokemaughan]

Definition of fruit of the lees.

Lees: (tasting term). The heavy sediment in a wine fermenting in a vat or barrel and consisting of dead yeast cells and other solid matter such as grape skins, pulp and seeds. Exposure to the lees imparts flavor and body to a wine. Hence, aging a wine on the lees (sur lie), and stirring it occasionally, increases flavor and body. Wine is separated from the lees by the process of

[Servant54]

Where does Communion fall into all of this?

Anyone want to answer this?

If consuming alcohol is a sin, are people sinning when they participate in communion?

do you mean are they really sinning in the eyes of God? or are you asking a rhetorical question about whether they are sinning in the eyes of some who are involved in this debate?

I want one of the individuals who claims that consuming alcohol is a sin to answer my question.

Sorry I took so long to respond as one of the abstainers.

There is an amazing truth behind communion.

Communion is to be partaken with no leaven(like Pasover) in the bread because Jesus knew no sin. Leaven is a type of sin. There was no sin in Him, so we make unleaven bread to remember Him by. The bread is His body.

The wine is a type of His blood. Again He was sinless so we would drink a "sinless" blood or a wine that has not seen corruption. So we should use non alcoholic wine(grape juice) for communion. Alcoholic wine has undergone corruption the sugars rotting into alcohol.

Typology is important to God, He wants us to do what He has commanded ..

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams

=======

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

That is also why I believe the wine at the Cana wedding Jesus made was non alcoholic because it was a type of and started His teaching ministry and His teachings were pure, like the wine .

[Servant54]

"It makes sense to me, but I think this topic requires SERIOUS study of Hebrew, Greek, culture, and context before it can be decided 100%."

I would agree, but you have to believe something in the mean time.

I will be out on the streets tomorrow and I will share what I know now(about salvation etc) and later I will correct some of that and share with greater understanding.

We all are a work in progress..I marvel at what I have learned in the 35 years I have been saved and feel like I am still in preschool in my understanding.

Then there is the study of the original languages and many things will have to be reevaluated in that light..we are find much wrong with translations these days and much new is coming to light.

I do feel I have figure out most of this alcohol debate and I see things that prove abstinence even more so but I do not have a good enough handle on them to bring them. I see no teaching on them I can copy and I have been too lazy to study them myself.

God Bless Everyone and thank you all for sharing, I have enjoyed this.

[Ovedya]

Where does Communion fall into all of this?

Anyone want to answer this?

If consuming alcohol is a sin, are people sinning when they participate in communion?

do you mean are they really sinning in the eyes of God? or are you asking a rhetorical question about whether they are sinning in the eyes of some who are involved in this debate?

I want one of the individuals who claims that consuming alcohol is a sin to answer my question.

Sorry I took so long to respond as one of the abstainers.

There is an amazing truth behind communion.

Communion is to be partaken with no leaven(like Pasover) in the bread because Jesus knew no sin. Leaven is a type of sin. There was no sin in Him, so we make unleaven bread to remember Him by. The bread is His body.

The wine is a type of His blood. Again He was sinless so we would drink a "sinless" blood or a wine that has not seen corruption. So we should use non alcoholic wine(grape juice) for communion. Alcoholic wine has undergone corruption the sugars rotting into alcohol.

Typology is important to God, He wants us to do what He has commanded ..

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams

=======

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

That is also why I believe the wine at the Cana wedding Jesus made was non alcoholic because it was a type of and started His teaching ministry and His teachings were pure, like the wine .

I respectfully disagree.

In typology wine can be compared with the life-giving aspect of the shed blood of Christ. While the bread signifies Christ's body broken for us, and the wine signifies His blood shed for us, both are for nourishment and invigoration. As members of the Body of Christ we may remember Him in these symbols, yet in significance the Body is for building and the blood is for cleansing. Therefore, Christ's sacrifice has two aspects: Redemption and the impartation of life for organic building and maturity. The fact that wine is fermented does not indicate corruption, but the life-giving aspect of the Lord Jesus as the Spirit.

With regard to the wedding at Cana, learn some more about the Jewish wedding feast, how it's conducted typically, and you will find that it was not only alcoholic wine, but the best of the best of alcoholic wine. I would be surprised to find a serious respected commentary claim that it was non-alcoholic.

[Servant54]

Ovedya said...

With regard to the wedding at Cana, learn some more about the Jewish wedding feast, how it's conducted typically, and you will find that it was not only alcoholic wine, but the best of the best of alcoholic wine. I would be surprised to find a serious respected commentary claim that it was non-alcoholic.

++++++++++

I do not doubt that modern backslid messiah rejecting Jews do all sorts of things at weddings and no doubt serve alcohol. I do not think they are a standard for us however. I also believe ancient Jews also some messiah rejecting and backslid did all sorts of things at weddings including serving alcohol. I also believe Jesus did something different and did not serve alcohol to those at the wedding. Maybe he broke with tradition...He was know for that

Remember the story of the wine skins..I believe it is the key to what happened at the wedding.

One drinking the old wine and thinking it is better. They were wrong remember? The new wine is Jesus teaching and the old wine is that which the Pharisees offered, you have been drink Pharisee wine you do not want the new sweet wine that Jesus does offer.

That is in Luke 5 37-39

[Ovedya]

Ovedya said...

With regard to the wedding at Cana, learn some more about the Jewish wedding feast, how it's conducted typically, and you will find that it was not only alcoholic wine, but the best of the best of alcoholic wine. I would be surprised to find a serious respected commentary claim that it was non-alcoholic.

++++++++++

I do not doubt that modern backslid messiah rejecting Jews do all sorts of things at weddings and no doubt serve alcohol. I do not think they are a standard for us however. I also believe ancient Jews also some messiah rejecting and backslid did all sorts of things at weddings including serving alcohol. I also believe Jesus did something different and did not serve alcohol to those at the wedding. Maybe he broke with tradition...He was know for that

Remember the story of the wine skins..I believe it is the key to what happened at the wedding.

One drinking the old wine and thinking it is better. They were wrong remember? The new wine is Jesus teaching and the old wine is that which the Pharisees offered, you have been drink Pharisee wine you do not want the new sweet wine that Jesus does offer.

That is in Luke 5 37-39

Wow. Again, interesting, but not historically accurate. Your assumption that it was only certain "backslidden" Jews that served wine at wedding feasts is entirely inaccurate. Seems to me that one must choose to believe that Jesus purposefully introduced unfermented wine at the wedding in Cana in order to reconcile themselves to the fact that He performed His first miracle (An honor in and of itself to the bride and groom) amidst a bunch of intoxicated people (Which they were not in any case). The Lord Jesus was real, a real man with a heart for all people. He would not have changed tradition for the sake of Himself, He participated in a regular wedding with regular sinners, and rejoiced with them; and He turned ordinary water into the best wine possible.

....as He was known for doing.

Read: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/Ea...gi?number=T3816

And here's Charles Spurgeon's commentary on the issue, which I agree with completely:

"do not think that I should do any good if I were to enter upon the discussion as to what sort of wine our Lord Jesus made on this occasion. It was wine, and I am sure it was very good wine, for he would produce nothing quite but the best. Was it wine such as men understand by that word now? It was wine; but there are very few people in this country who ever see, much less drink, any of that beverage. That which goes under the name of wine is not true wine, but a fiery, brandied concoction of which I feel sure that Jesus would not have tasted a drop. The fire-waters and blazing spirits of modern wine manufacturers are very different articles from the juice of the grape, mildly exhilarating, which was the usual wine of more sober centuries. As to the wine such as is commonly used in the East, a person must drink inordinately before he would become intoxicated with it. It would be possible, for there were cases in which men were intoxicated with wine; but, as a rule, intoxication was a rare vice in the Savior's times and in the preceding ages. Had our great Exemplar lived under our present circumstances, surrounded by a sea of deadly drink, which is ruining tens of thousands, I know how he would have acted. I am sure he would not have contributed by word or deed to the rivers of poisonous beverages in which bodies and souls are now being destroyed wholesale. The kind of wine which he made was such that, if there had been no stronger drink in the world, nobody might have thought it necessary to enter any protest against drinking it. It would have done nobody any hurt, be sure of that, or else Jesus our loving Savior would not have made it."(Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit

The Waterpots at Cana, A Sermon (No. 1556) Delivered by C. H. SPURGEON, At the Metropolitan Tabernacle, Newington)

[Shiloh62]

Ovedya said...

With regard to the wedding at Cana, learn some more about the Jewish wedding feast, how it's conducted typically, and you will find that it was not only alcoholic wine, but the best of the best of alcoholic wine. I would be surprised to find a serious respected commentary claim that it was non-alcoholic.

++++++++++

I do not doubt that modern backslid messiah rejecting Jews do all sorts of things at weddings and no doubt serve alcohol. I do not think they are a standard for us however. I also believe ancient Jews also some messiah rejecting and backslid did all sorts of things at weddings including serving alcohol. I also believe Jesus did something different and did not serve alcohol to those at the wedding. Maybe he broke with tradition...He was know for that

Remember the story of the wine skins..I believe it is the key to what happened at the wedding.

One drinking the old wine and thinking it is better. They were wrong remember? The new wine is Jesus teaching and the old wine is that which the Pharisees offered, you have been drink Pharisee wine you do not want the new sweet wine that Jesus does offer.

That is in Luke 5 37-39

Wow. Again, interesting, but not historically accurate. Your assumption that it was only certain "backslidden" Jews that served wine at wedding feasts is entirely inaccurate. Seems to me that one must choose to believe that Jesus purposefully introduced unfermented wine at the wedding in Cana in order to reconcile themselves to the fact that He performed His first miracle (An honor in and of itself to the bride and groom) amidst a bunch of intoxicated people (Which they were not in any case). The Lord Jesus was real, a real man with a heart for all people. He would not have changed tradition for the sake of Himself, He participated in a regular wedding with regular sinners, and rejoiced with them; and He turned ordinary water into the best wine possible.

....as He was known for doing.

Read: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/Ea...gi?number=T3816

And here's Charles Spurgeon's commentary on the issue, which I agree with completely:

"do not think that I should do any good if I were to enter upon the discussion as to what sort of wine our Lord Jesus made on this occasion. It was wine, and I am sure it was very good wine, for he would produce nothing quite but the best. Was it wine such as men understand by that word now? It was wine; but there are very few people in this country who ever see, much less drink, any of that beverage. That which goes under the name of wine is not true wine, but a fiery, brandied concoction of which I feel sure that Jesus would not have tasted a drop. The fire-waters and blazing spirits of modern wine manufacturers are very different articles from the juice of the grape, mildly exhilarating, which was the usual wine of more sober centuries. As to the wine such as is commonly used in the East, a person must drink inordinately before he would become intoxicated with it. It would be possible, for there were cases in which men were intoxicated with wine; but, as a rule, intoxication was a rare vice in the Savior's times and in the preceding ages. Had our great Exemplar lived under our present circumstances, surrounded by a sea of deadly drink, which is ruining tens of thousands, I know how he would have acted. I am sure he would not have contributed by word or deed to the rivers of poisonous beverages in which bodies and souls are now being destroyed wholesale. The kind of wine which he made was such that, if there had been no stronger drink in the world, nobody might have thought it necessary to enter any protest against drinking it. It would have done nobody any hurt, be sure of that, or else Jesus our loving Savior would not have made it."(Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit

The Waterpots at Cana, A Sermon (No. 1556) Delivered by C. H. SPURGEON, At the Metropolitan Tabernacle, Newington)

And the surprising thing is that the best wine was always served first, and that this wine was better than any that they had drank all day.

[Guest man]

I want one of the individuals who claims that consuming alcohol is a sin to answer my question.

Sorry I took so long to respond as one of the abstainers.

There is an amazing truth behind communion.

Communion is to be partaken with no leaven(like Pasover) in the bread because Jesus knew no sin. Leaven is a type of sin. There was no sin in Him, so we make unleaven bread to remember Him by. The bread is His body.

The wine is a type of His blood. Again He was sinless so we would drink a "sinless" blood or a wine that has not seen corruption. So we should use non alcoholic wine(grape juice) for communion. Alcoholic wine has undergone corruption the sugars rotting into alcohol.

Typology is important to God, He wants us to do what He has commanded ..

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams

=======

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

That is also why I believe the wine at the Cana wedding Jesus made was non alcoholic because it was a type of and started His teaching ministry and His teachings were pure, like the wine .

You sidestepped the issue, so I will ask again.

Are those who participate in communion, sinning?