Alcohol

[artsylady]

I tried to see the Van Impe link but got this response, which I've never seen before.

Your Online Services session has timed out

We have timed out your session due to inactivity in order to protect your privacy.

??

Anita rose. People showed up for work drunk? How odd!

[Smalcald]

Smalcald,

I can see why you left out the passages about avoiding the harlot..".So the message of moderation is clear"

Well yes moderation and control in how we use our sexual urges, it would certainly apply. The whole passage is about how to live our lives in a way of moderation and control which is pleasing to Christ.

Why did you not want to address the passage which says not to drink too much? Your whole idea seems to come from the comment about not gazing on wine when it is red and goes down smoothly?

I don't know, when we look at scripture and deal with it in a straightforward way the case I am making is simply the clearer reading. The case I am making by the way is that Christians are not to be drunkards or hang out with drunkards or abuse any substance such as food, wine or sex. I think when we have these disagreements we can look to how most Christians throughout most of our history have read and understood scripture, after all are we the first to pick up a bible? I encourage people to read about how most Christians since the Apostles have understood how we are to handle alcohol.

[Servant54]

Smalcald,

I can see why you left out the passages about avoiding the harlot..".So the message of moderation is clear"

A]Well yes moderation and control in how we use our sexual urges, it would certainly apply. The whole passage is about how to live our lives in a way of moderation and control which is pleasing to Christ.

B]Why did you not want to address the passage which says not to drink too much? Your whole idea seems to come from the comment about not gazing on wine when it is red and goes down smoothly?

I don't know, when we look at scripture and deal with it in a straightforward way the case I am making is simply the clearer reading. The case I am making by the way is that Christians are not to be drunkards or hang out with drunkards or abuse any substance such as food, wine or sex. I think when we have these disagreements we can look to how most Christians throughout most of our history have read and understood scripture, after all are we the first to pick up a bible? I encourage people to read about how most Christians since the Apostles have understood how we are to handle alcohol.

A]No we do not view a harlot with moderation....nice hat dance We only sip on a harlot we do not have more than on glass of her lest we fall into sin. Does not fit sorry.

B] I did about twenty pages ago. Abstinence is not a requirement for salvation, very worldly people coming into the church, they have requirements to not have too much wine if becoming a deacon..their wine was obviously watered down in that you had to drink too much to become .08 right or buzzed? So God allowed them space to end up like an elder NO WINE.

The moderation argument falls apart if they compare today's wine with the wine of yester year as that wine took "too much" to get you buzzed and today's wine you are buzzed with one or two drinks which is not much.

Why was Timothy abstaining from the wine even though he had a health problem that the wine could help?..this is what we need to be asking this should be our heart..would Timothy have abstained his whole life if it were not for his stomach??

::::::::::::

You still need to answer why the son is NOT TO LOOK ON WINE in Proverbs 23:31. I agree at last it makes you drunk, but I am not talking about the last I am talking about the first when you look on it and there is that DO NOT again.

Off to work..blessings on you.

Edited May 19, 2009 by Servant54

[Smalcald]

29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow?

Who has strife? Who has complaints?

Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes?

30 Those who linger over wine,

who go to sample bowls of mixed wine.

31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red,

when it sparkles in the cup,

when it goes down smoothly!

32 In the end it bites like a snake

and poisons like a viper.

Hi Servant.

Can I gaze at wine when it is not red? If you read the versus a command would be in the form of don't drink alcohol ever. Now we do have those commands on some substances for example pork or fish without scales, or bats etc; those commands were given and they were direct, they were given to the Jew's but we do have direct commands on diet in scripture, God knows how to do that. One would think that if abstaining from any amount of wine was a command it would be there, but it is nowhere, including in this passage.

I would just encourage people to read the above passage and come to their own conclusion. It is too bad that you are missing the very very insightful nature of this passage. People who have a problem with alcohol, do indeed think about booze a whole bunch, they gaze upon it lingering over it, they are obsessed it is a very hard addiction and we must pray for them. Of course in the end it bites like a snake. But to me I hope I die one minute after having the cup of the Lord's Supper containing wine and the bread of His Body; just as the original apostles did free, clear and at peace with my Lord. I can think of no better death, and it will include an ounce of wine.

Why do you think Paul in chastising those early Christians who were turning the Lords supper into a feeding and drinking party, that some were drunk?

[Axxman]

That is why i am saying context is everything. There is nothing to suggest Jesus turned the water into grape juice.

There is plenty to suggest that Jesus would turn water into grape juice. First of all the Saviour of the world was blameless. He wouldn't make 150 gallons of alcohol for a party at which everyone was well drunk. Secondly, you assume that the master of the feast would have found alcoholic wine to be better. Thirdly, the word "wine" in this context in NO WAY implies anything other than it was a beverage made from grapes.

Especially given the context of the time period where it standard for Jewish weddings to include wine. And even more especially with people coming up and commenting on how good it was.

This goes to my second point above. It is historically inaccurate to say that people thought alcoholic wine was better than non-alcoholic wine. Men from Aristotle to Pliny (and multiples in between) wrote that the superior wine was "wines are most beneficial when all their potency has been removed by the strainer." (Pliny, Natural History 23, 24, trans. W. H. S. Jones, The Loeb Classical Library) or ...Similarly, Plutarch points out that wine is "much more pleasant to drink" when it "neither inflames the brain nor infests the mind or passions" (Plutarch, Symposiac 8, 7. )

There is an over-abundance of history to show that Jesus making 150 gallons of pure, freshly squeezed juice would have elated the guests at the wedding. It is a historical fallacy to assume that everyone just walked around drinking alcoholic beverages all the time simply because it was available. No one would make that assumption of Christians today, inspite of an over abundance of alcoholic beverages available...why make that assumption about Jesus and Christians in His era.

You simply cannot win this debate on historical grounds in my opinion which is why most drinking Christians stick with the very limited view presented by bible translators that all wine is alcoholic. I'm sorry, but that view is simply outdated and disproven.

Even when we later see that 'Jesus was drinking' and 'they called him a drunkard". You STILL believe it be grape juice while ignoring the context. You can't wrap your head around the fact that Jesus drank wine because YOU find it scandelous to think such a thing, despite all of the evidence. Well, it's not scandelous. It's not a sin if one doesn't overindulge.

Actually, in the context of Jesus...no wine is mentioned. Wine is only mentioned in reference to John. Because we KNOW John must abstain from eating all grape products the word "wine" in reference to John could apply to any and all grape products including food products containing grapes. There is NO reason to limit the word wine in that context to alcoholic wine...especially in light of the fact that they didn't call John a drunkard. Jesus conversely came eating and drinking grape products and it neither made him a glutton or a drunkard. There is simply NO REASON based on the baseless accusations to assume that Jesus drank alcoholic beverages.

For example...about a year ago I was drinking a beverage outside of my work place. It was a Sugar Free Energy Drink that comes in a silver can. A co-worker saw me drinking it in my car and told one of my bosses that he thought it was a Coor's light. My boss immediately told me he didn't believe it because he knew that was against my character...but he had to check it out anyway. I produced the can and a good laugh was had by all (even my co-worker who I understood his concern.) How exactly did the Pharisee's know what Jesus was drinking? They saw him drinking a cup of "red" or "white" beverage...lol. Did they overhear Jesus at the bar ordering His Zinfindel?? You base your assumption on the outdated and disproven notion that ALL wine was alcoholic and that everyone drank alcoholic wine all the time.

The historical context backs me up. The context of Jesus' Holy and Blameless character backs me up. And the context of the written words in the bible (based on a proper understanding of the word "wine") backs me up.

[Axxman]

Well, he DID put limitations on divorce. He DID make it clear. In the very few references regarding divorce, he WAS clear.

Yes, God DID say he hates divorce. It is clear! With wine, he gave both negative positive but each one of the negatives he mentioned on alcohol were in regards to "TOO MUCH".

Its sooo clear..and yet we have a 20 page thread every couple of months with another Christian trying to justify why they need a divorce. I think he's fairly clear on wine too...its a mocker, its makes a fool of you. Don't look at it and be tempted by it. Its dangerous, and can get you drunk. Yep...sounds like a proper endorsement to me...lol.

Looks like you may be sidestepping. HE DID MENTION WINE AND ALCOHOL HUNDREDS OF TIMES.

Yes, it is mentioned...but one of us thinks that all wine in the bible is alcoholic despite tons of evidence to the contrary. One of us can't fathom that Jesus drank grape juice. One of us operates under the assumption that since alcohol was available...everyone must have drank it.

Do you need an excuse to eat? Why do you think gluttony and drunkeness are mentioned together so many various times? Do you think it could do with overindulgance?

Obviously, drunkeness and gluttony are sins of overindulgence. But we are not talking about sins here. Unless of course you want to keep up the assumption that Jesus was actually a glutton because the Pharisee's accused Him of it.

I'd go through this for you except as shown, there isn't a single translation that states deacons are to 'stay away' rather than having "too much".

But you avoided the point. So what if its transliterated differently. I have no issue with the translation you have because it still doesn't condone alcohol anymore than Solomon condoned being moderately "wicked" by saying "Do not be overly wicked." Under your understanding of the verse...if deacon's are not to be given to "much wine"...then it can only stand to reason that everyone else can be given to "much wine" and we KNOW that is a false understanding of the scripture here. NO ONE is to be given to "much wine" so clearly the understanding here MUST BE a position of abstinence. Therefore the earlier command to avoid wine is verified.

Who is Albert Barns? Anyone can write book and have an opinion.

Oh you caught me...i just posted some hack who's critical notes and commentary have been used by pastors around the world for the last 100 years. Now...that doesn't automatically make him right all the time...but the fact that you don't know him speaks volumes. I'd say he's right up there with Matthew Henry, John Darby, and John wesley...but they are probably just names to you.

[Smalcald]

The hard part I think we are having is that we are not defending wine. Wine-alcohol in general has caused many problems in our world and in our families. What we are simply talking about those of us who are questioning total abstinence is that scripture does not say abstinence for wine or meat.

I will say this if one 6oz glass of wine causes drunkenness for someone they should not drink it, drunkenness is a sin of the flesh and is indeed directly spelled out in scripture.

There is no comparison to divorce, Christ said though shall not divorce, period in one Gospel, in the other two He says only with these exceptions. Beyond that divorce is a relational issue of the heart, wine is a fermented substance. Drunkenness is a condition of the heart and an action a thought, a temptation a "lingering" and "gazing".

[cmason531]

Some people believe that drinking alcohol is ok since Christ turned water into wine. But that is all they had to drink that was sanitized for them to drink.

Also the wine in that time was so diluted that you would have to drink close to 75 cups of wine to even feel a

[kross]

I just think we need to stick with scripture.

yes. and the whole of Scripture--not verses picked out here and there.

If you are going to stick to the whole of scripture, than you have to add in grace and salvation by faith, not of works, that we are under grace and not the law. Thus, this conversation is in part moot.

It seems that people to the extreme of one side or the other take the time to comment as with authority and perfect understanding on that which is a doubtful issue at best. (based on the use of good scriptures pointing to both points of view)

Perhaps, somewhere in the discussion should be the truth that salvation is OF THE LORD and is a free gift. Whether one drinks and for what reason they do so is between them and their LORD.

[Servant54]

31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red,

when it sparkles in the cup,

when it goes down smoothly!

Hi Servant.

Can I gaze at wine when it is not red? If you read the versus a command would be in the form of don't drink alcohol ever. Now we do have those commands on some substances for example pork or fish without scales, or bats etc; those commands were given and they were direct, they were given to the Jew's but we do have direct commands on diet in scripture, God knows how to do that. One would think that if abstaining from any amount of wine was a command it would be there, but it is nowhere, including in this passage.

I would just encourage people to read the above passage and come to their own conclusion. It is too bad that you are missing the very very insightful nature of this passage. People who have a problem with alcohol, do indeed think about booze a whole bunch, they gaze upon it lingering over it, they are obsessed it is a very hard addiction and we must pray for them. Of course in the end it bites like a snake. But to me I hope I die one minute after having the cup of the Lord's Supper containing wine and the bread of His Body; just as the original apostles did free, clear and at peace with my Lord. I can think of no better death, and it will include an ounce of wine.

Why do you think Paul in chastising those early Christians who were turning the Lords supper into a feeding and drinking party, that some were drunk?

The term red denotes that the wine has been fermented with the skin..that is the only way it becomes red...so red denotes fermented.( I looked this up the other day)

..........................

If Christians are drunk, would you trust the type of wine they chose for the Lord's supper?..I think they came to church drunk if I am not mistaken so them drinking alcohol has nothing to do with what wine they used for the Lord's supper. Either way here again you have a huge bridge of assumption.

...........................

Smalcald, don't look on the wine,the first thing or at last your eyes will see strange things. (Note the action of drinking the wine is mentioned in the verse..not just looking at it....... it goes down smoothly)

There is your commandment. Prov.23;31

Edited May 21, 2009 by Servant54