Alcohol

[MorningGlory]

Alcohol doesn't treat everybody the same..and thats why its important that we are careful with how we present ourselves (much less Jesus Christ) on this issue.

This is true; I've had friends who became alcoholics in their twenties and others who drank for ten years and then just quit; they never became addicted. My kids grew up seeing peope NOT drinking and neither one of them drinks more than an occasional glass of wine. I wish I could take the credit but all I did was NOT drink. I hate the stuff!

[Guest yod]

A person does not have to place Jesus' ministry, life, and testimony on the line in order to enjoy a beverage that they can take responisibity for as an adult.

Where do you think I (or anyone else) is putting Yeshua's ministry, life, and testimony "on the line" for saying that He was jewish and lived like jews of His day? Does your faith stand or fall on whether He drank wine? I don't honestly understand why there would be any "foul" to cry if we're seeking what is true in the scriptures without regard for whatever denominational bias it might contradict.

Because, believe me, if He didn't touch fermented wine that would have been a prominently mentioned detail in scriptures because it would be soooooooo unusual for the culture He comes from. It would mean He had not participated in the Passover in His life like every other jew had done since Moses.

Besides, to do such a thing is a very special "Nazarite" vow (Numbers 6).

John's disciples once asked why they were fasting while Yeshua's disciples were not. Yeshua used that occasion to give them a parable on a wedding parties and wine making/storage.

14Then John's disciples came and asked him, "How is it that we and the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?"

15Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast.

16"No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse.

17 Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved."

Then in Matt 11, He says,

18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Yeshua definitely doesn't have the same disregard for anything fermented as you seem to. Why don't you approve of Him having wine?

.

[Axxman]

Because, believe me, if He didn't touch fermented wine that would have been a prominently mentioned detail in scriptures because it would be soooooooo unusual for the culture He comes from. It would mean He had not participated in the Passover in His life like every other jew had done since Moses.

Besides, to do such a thing is a very special "Nazarite" vow (Numbers 6).

Yeshua definitely doesn't have the same disregard for anything fermented as you seem to. Why don't you approve of Him having wine?

Hey brother..you know we've circled this wagon in the past...so I'll skip the re-treading of teh scriptures that have already been discussed at length in this thread. However...I believe that your understanding of the culture is flawed by a misconception that alcohol was the only thing to drink besides water. It was NO LESS unusual to not drink alcohol then...as it is now. Alcohol is widely available in many cultures and yet as John's story shows...it was possible to abstain from grape products altogether and live a healthy natural life. As you pointed out...the "special thing" about John was not that he didn't drink alcohol..but rather his Nazarite vow.

I don't believe that Jesus would have taken an addictive, mind altering substance for social purposes....based on the available evidence. If you see a guy providing mass amounts of alcohol to a party...or drinking alcohol socially all the time (to the point people are calling him a drunkard)...then that guy tells you "I am the Saviour"..."I am God's son." Its kind of hard to judge a person for dismissing that character. I don't believe Jesus would have done ANYTHING to undermine that ministry. Even something as admittedly trivial as having a glass of wine.

Also...I am not totally averse to alcoholic wine...i just don't put it in the hands of the Saviour of the world..as the Pharisee's tried to.

[Servant54]

I have been asking all Muslims and Middle Easterners about wine skins seeing if they have seen them with stuff stored in them or whether there grampas have. ( I love to see if I can hear personal testimony of how things were in yester year.)

They have answered that it is against their religion to drink alcohol. They also go by the OT law of clean and unclean.

All moderate drinkers on this forum have assumed that OT Jews drank alcohol on a regular bases yet this off shoot of Judaism goes by the same health code yet believes that it is wrong to drink. Interesting.

Is it a proof that OT Jews did not drink........... no it is not................however it is interesting to note.

Realize that the Jews of today are not believers as was say Mary Jesus mother and many in Jesus day. They are all backslid and we can not observe their actions and base what OT "believing" Jews did or did not do based on what is done today.

Also note that at many times in the history of Judea and Israel they were totally backslid, in fact a good portion of the time they were backslid and what they did was not necessarily what God intended for their lives. (Eating your kids kind of puts you in a bad religious light)

Just some thoughts.

[Servant54]

Speaking of a Nazerite, it is interesting that they were looked up to in their society. A total abstainer looked up to.

Lets see who abstained... Nazerites like Sampson and John who ministered and were used in high offices as leaders. Remember what Jesus said of John?

Kings were supposed to be abstainers..they were leaders and looked up to.

There were priests that were abstainers and looked up to.

The Recabites were just a family that would did not drink and God honored their young men by how well they obey their father who commanded them not to Jer35. another positive view of abstainers.

Then you come to the New Testament and we see elders/bishops are supposed to be abstainers and are leaders and highly looked up to.

So why is it that people who desire to be abstainers seem to get no respect now a days...but are in fact mocked by many or called legalistic.

Just something to ponder during commercials or waiting for the microwave to be done.

Edited May 21, 2009 by Servant54

[Guest LadyC]

should i take a bow?

it's a shame isn't it? we don't seem to be a christian nation anymore... we're a prozac/cognac/in-the-sack nation.

I think that for some people that is a fact of life - but I think that is a pretty broad statement. I also see a lot of kids who were raised to be 'responsible and accountable' by devoted Christian parents - and those kids do some pretty stupid things despite their training - so to say that if they are taught accountability and respect and consequences this won't happen... is not always the case. And I'm sure you realize that. Sometimes the best parenting in the world doesn't equate to success. Good kids make mistakes and big ones and we pray - just pray that God will take care of them and that they'll get past the mistakes without too much agony.

i understand what you're saying, believer, and you're right, but i think lady was talking more about society in general--which can sometimes have more influence on our kids than family can. if society didn't have this "run away from it all" mentality, it wouldn't be so very easy for kids to slip into that same kind of irresponsible lifestyle.

actually, i was including christian families in my statement, as far as the teaching how to drink responsibly. the truth is, in our society it is often "all or nothing"... the worldly families where kids grow up around alcohol abusers, or the families where kids grow up being taught that a drop of alcohol is a grave sin. neither of these two types of family teach the kids any respect for alcohol. either the kids are taught no self control at all, or the forbidden fruit becomes so appealing that parents don't stand much of a chance against the peer pressure their kids face.

still though, the kids brought up in a "no alcohol" christian family still have some advantages over non-christian families, because they have a foundation of faith that they will likely return to when they grow older.

[Servant54]

should i take a bow?

it's a shame isn't it? we don't seem to be a christian nation anymore... we're a prozac/cognac/in-the-sack nation.

I think that for some people that is a fact of life - but I think that is a pretty broad statement. I also see a lot of kids who were raised to be 'responsible and accountable' by devoted Christian parents - and those kids do some pretty stupid things despite their training - so to say that if they are taught accountability and respect and consequences this won't happen... is not always the case. And I'm sure you realize that. Sometimes the best parenting in the world doesn't equate to success. Good kids make mistakes and big ones and we pray - just pray that God will take care of them and that they'll get past the mistakes without too much agony.

i understand what you're saying, believer, and you're right, but i think lady was talking more about society in general--which can sometimes have more influence on our kids than family can. if society didn't have this "run away from it all" mentality, it wouldn't be so very easy for kids to slip into that same kind of irresponsible lifestyle.

actually, i was including christian families in my statement, as far as the teaching how to drink responsibly. the truth is, in our society it is often "all or nothing"... the worldly families where kids grow up around alcohol abusers, or the families where kids grow up being taught that a drop of alcohol is a grave sin. neither of these two types of family teach the kids any respect for alcohol. either the kids are taught no self control at all, or the forbidden fruit becomes so appealing that parents don't stand much of a chance against the peer pressure their kids face.

still though, the kids brought up in a "no alcohol" christian family still have some advantages over non-christian families, because they have a foundation of faith that they will likely return to when they grow older.

I can not speak for every abstinence family, but my three boys who are in college are not swayed in the least by someone who drinks..they actually are trend setters and get there friends not to drink if the friends were incorrectly taught it is ok to drink alcohol in their home. They are the ones who their peers look up to and they would not even THINK of drinking..they are like the Recabites sons of old.

My kids respect alcohol that is why they do not look on it.

Unless you have any documentation to back up your claims they are only hear say. You are entitled to your opinion.

[Servant54]

Lamentations 2:11-12 When little ones and infants faint In the streets of the city.

They say to their mothers, "Where is grain and wine?" As they faint like a wounded man In the streets of the city, As their life is poured out On their mothers' bosom.

Matt 18:14 But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these

If Jesus was at a childs birthday party and the wine failed would he turn the water into alcoholic wine?

Just a little brain teaser.

[Guest LadyC]

give me a break. mine is no more hearsay than yours is. it's wonderful that your kids are an exception to the rule, but i've lived a long time and known way too many kids from families who forbade alcohol who caved to peer pressure. of those raised in no-alcohol homes, probably 90% of the ones i've known abused alcohol at some point, usually during their teen years. i don't need statistics to know what i've seen first-hand, anymore than you need statistics to back up the fact that your kids are smarter than the average.

and it doesn't change the fact that scripture does not forbid alcohol.

[Servant54]

Servant - It sounds to me like you've had some serious things happen in your family as a result of abusing alcohol. Like, LadyC, your relatives simply don't lose their salvation because they sin - God is not going to let go of them simply because they've abused alcohol. I think perhaps you have judged them as being lost - but I don't think that is necessarily the case. Abuse of anything - drugs, alcohol, money, sex addiction, gambling, etc. can lead to unhealthy patterns of lifestyle - but it doesn't cause God to withdraw His Love or Salvation. I think the Christian who has fallen in their Walk with God needs to re-evaluate and repent, but I would never say they 'lost their salvation' - that's not for us to decide.

I Cor 5:11-13But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-- not even to eat with such a one,

For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?

But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

I Cor 6: 9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, NOR DRUNKARDS, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

................

It is quite clear by scripture that if alcohol becomes the lord of your life, you will die in your sins, even if at one time you were saved

I do not rebut what you say to win a point...I just believe many here do not realize that DRUNKARDS will not enter the kingdom of God according to clear text of scripture.

Oh that I would wish I were wrong and would see my uncle in heaven..but I am a realist and know better because of what the scripture teaches.

Edited May 21, 2009 by Servant54