Alcohol

[stacey c]

After a long day at work, and pondering various facets of Christian doctrine, I think everyone could use a grin or two.

Was that GRIN or two........ or GIN or two??????

Sorry couln't resist... my bad.

[Blien]

LOL how a conviently appropriate joke! HAHAHA

[MorningGlory]

And there's 150 calories in a Twinkie.......what's your point?

is that a single twinkie... or a whole package of two twinkies? (please say it's two and not just one!)

Just 1.

btw, how did you know this?

I just ate the last one out of a box of 10.

just tell me you didn't buy it this morning.

and were you sitting, standing, or standing on your head when you partook of the creamy filling delights?

btw, are we off topic here?

Well, if he was standing on his head then the calories all fell out on the floor; they don't count. Mmmmm....Twinkies....okay, now I want one!

[Servant54]

i'm not buying into your history lesson of non-alcoholic strong drink. scripture is full of references to not abusing wine or strong drink, which would be a pointless warning if it was non-alcoholic. so since it doesn't differentiate between alcohol and non-alcohol when giving warnings against one and permission for the other, seems to me your arguments are futile.

First I apologize if I gave the impression I believed all "strong drink" references were referring to non alcoholic drink. I wanted to make the point that the word Shekar in Hebrew is referring to the product of palm sap. It could be any number of different things including alcoholic drink or non alcoholic drink..just like the word wine could be either. Cider is a word we use interchangeably in our society for alcoholic and non alcoholic apple juice.

It is the context that define these generic words.

In a previous postI listed some places where wine would most likely be used to describe grape juice instead of an alcoholic wine.

Even an older dictionary from the 40's says wine can be grape juice.

We have to jib one scripture that says not to look at wine with one that says drink wine and the only logical conclusion I can see is we are talking about two different wines, one alcoholic and one not.

[Servant54]

i'm not buying into your history lesson of non-alcoholic strong drink. scripture is full of references to not abusing wine or strong drink, which would be a pointless warning if it was non-alcoholic. so since it doesn't differentiate between alcohol and non-alcohol when giving warnings against one and permission for the other, seems to me your arguments are futile.

Exactly.

Also in the passage from Luke I posted, Jesus said people criticized John the Baptist for not drinking and they criticized Him for drinking, He was making another point, but He said that indeed He did drink in that passage. Also if Jesus took Passover, which as an observant Jewish man He did, and of course we know about the Last Supper; He indeed drank wine, which was part of a Seder meal, as it is today and has been for 4000 some years. But big deal, drinking a glass of wine is not a sin it never has been a sin and was not ever considered a sin until some recent sects in the 19th and 20th century came up with the idea. It is not scriptural to say that an adult drinking a glass of wine is sinful.

But of course when I go down that road it looks as if I am promoting drinking and I am not, I just don't think light drinking is a big deal anymore than drinking a cup of coffee is or eating a fatty hamburger is now and then. Well actually drinking a glass of wine with dinner is better than coffee or fat in that it has shown some health benefits. The problem when we start inventing this sort of false piety is that it can lead to forgetting about what is really important when it comes to Christian morality.

Anyway I realize we agree.

John the Baptist did not even drink grape juice, he was not even supposed to have raisins or grapes. So we can not compare John to Jesus and say ..see Jesus drank alcohol and John did not because John drank NO grape products..none...the argument then falls apart.

Jesus eating and drink was just that.

They also called Jesus a glutton for eating.

They also said Jesus had a demon, but we know this is a TOTAL FABRICATION and so why would we trust anything his detractors said.

Passover would not include leavened grape product which is the process for making alcoholic wine. Leaven is a type for sin. There is not sin in Jesus blood the passover lamb.

If we copy what Jews do today thinking they are the authentic link to the believing messiah seeking Jews in Jesus day we are in a heap of trouble. Let us allow the scripture to be our soul rule of faith and leave tradition for others.

I am not trying to invent false piety..I am trying to stop what is described as an epidemic in our society today and keep our youth from the slippery slope of the mocker alcohol.

[Guest LadyC]

charitow, i don't think he's intentionally twisting it. but in the end, he has chosen to find theologians whose explanations jive with his personal perspective. it's the same thing that many people choose to do... someone wants to believe homosexuality is ok, they'll find some religious studies that support their claim. they want shacking up to be ok, they'll find some studies that someone has done that supports their view.

alcohol is a substance NOT prohibited by scripture. period. but people will insist that it is because it makes them feel better. they fail to just be able to rest on scripture that simply warns against abusing the substance. their motives are good, though.

[Axxman]

History teaches that until Dr. Welch discovered pasturising grape juice in the mid 1800's you had about a week to either drink the grape juice or make wine out of it, for if you don't it will on its own turn into vinigar.

Grapes pretty much ripen once a year and the time for fresh juice is very limited.

History teaches no such thing. There is a rich history of ancient peoples being able to preserve fruits, beverages, meats, etc...for long periods of time. They were actually quite clever.

[Axxman]

charitow, i don't think he's intentionally twisting it. but in the end, he has chosen to find theologians whose explanations jive with his personal perspective. it's the same thing that many people choose to do... someone wants to believe homosexuality is ok, they'll find some religious studies that support their claim. they want shacking up to be ok, they'll find some studies that someone has done that supports their view.

alcohol is a substance NOT prohibited by scripture. period. but people will insist that it is because it makes them feel better to be able to look down their noses at those who might enjoy a beer once in a while. they fail to just be able to rest on scripture that simply warns against abusing the substance. their motives are good, though.

Quite an offensive post here...

Yes..we just twist and turn scripture however we can so that we can look down on all the sinners around us. Seriously! Offensive.... (and yes, I know you don't care)

[Axxman]

Scripture does not call drinking alcohol a sin...we can all agree on that. I do not judge anyone who has come to the conclusion that they are allowed to drink alcohol. If that is your conviction then it is between you and God and no man can judge you for it.

My issue is when people try to justify their actions based on a misunderstanding that the bible condones alcoholic beverages. The bible neither condemns, nor condones, drinking alcohol and to try and justify our actions by listening to childish accusations from Pharisees ("Jesus is a drunkard") or that the Savior of mankind created 150 gallons of alcohol for a bunch of people that were already drunk...that just doesn't sit well with me.

If you want to know if you should drink alcohol then seek God's will in your life and let that be good enough.

[Guest LadyC]

axxman, if you have an ax to grind with me, (pun intended!) please take it to me in private. don't assume i don't care just because you don't agree with me. i didn't intend to be offensive to anyone. i was sticking up for the guy because i truly do not believe he was intending to, as charitow put it, twist scripture according to his "agenda".