loosing salvation

[kross]

You are correct in that I do not believe in free will. I believe the will of man is the weakest of three wills at work in the world. GOD's, Satan's and man's. If a man is left a captive to sin and Satan, he will not turn to GOD. If GOD, on the other hand, intervenes in the life of a captive, than that person will turn from sin and Satan to GOD. If GOD does nothing but nulify Satan's influence, than a man will serve his flesh. Thus we are given the HOLY SPIRIT to guide us so that, while we may devise our way, the LORD directs our steps.

These verses point to a free will where one is instructed to submit. If we had no free will, there would be no need to be told to submit, nor would there be any double-minded people whom they would address. Now, if Satan's will was greater then mans, why would he flee? If Satan's will was greater then mans, why are not all the unsaved possessed by his demons? You give Satan way too much power.

James 4:7-8 (New King James Version)

Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Regardless of whether or not one believes in free will, it is certain that if GOD determines that one is to go left when one is intending to go right, GOD is able to give the perfect nudge or alteration in the current condition to cause that person to choose to go left.

Guess Adam and Eve was nudged by God to eat the forbidden fruit? Guess it was Gods nudge that told the Hebrew people to build a golden calf as Moses sought the will of God on Mt Sinai. You words would lead me to think this because by your standards, God determined them to go left when they were going right. Wrong!

GOD's promise in scripture is that all who call on HIM will be saved. That is a promise. It doesn't say that all who call on HIM will be put into a group that, if they are good enough, will be saved. There is more to calling on HIM than just speaking a word or two. "IF you believe in your heart that JESUS is the son of GOD, and confess HIM with your mouth, THAN you will be saved". That "believe in your heart" is a HUGE thing. Until one is "Born again", one cannot believe a spiritual truth, for they are spiritually discerned. JESUS and salvation are spiritual truths. They are not achieved from "Head Knowledge", they are Heart knowledge.

I agree. Those so seek salvation will receive it. That is never been the issue here.

We are given the HOLY SPIRIT to seal us unto the day of redemption. We have recieved the spirit of adoption by which we cry out ABA FATHER. HE will not un-adopt us and HE will not allow those HE has saved, and in whom HE dwells, to be lost. The whole point of "In my weakness HE is made strong" is that when I am too weak to "Keep myself saved", HE is too strong to loose HIS grip. I do not need to keep holding on to HIS hand. HIS hand is holding onto me.

God never forces Himself on anyone. He has given us the ability to freely choose whether or not we will follow Him. I agree. If someone who is saved does not want to turn away, there is nothing that can remove him from God. BUT ... If a person no longer wants to follow God, God will not force Himself on them. This brings us back to the scripture given to you before.

Revelation 3:5

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Hebrews 6:1-8

Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

I know that we see these points of doctrine differently. I like these discussions because they bring out both points. I do not think I will ever change the mind of one who has studied and found a point of view that is different than mine. But i do know that my understanding is true, just as you know for certain that your understanding is true.

"Now unto HIM who is able to keep you from falling, and present you blameless before the throne, be allpower and glory and dominion for ever. Amen"

Why? Because it's all about JESUS. And HE IS ABLE to keep you from falling. HE is. Really. Able to keep you from falling. Back to you;

Is HE willing to keep you from falling?

To be completely honest with you, Kross, for the life of me, I will never understand why anyone who has found salvation in Christ would ever turn their back on Christ, but scripture tells us they can and do. If I seek His help, He is able and willing to keep me from falling. This has ever been a part of this debate. I will go to my death defending the fact that those who seek Him, He will never loose. Still, there are "those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come", that fall away. If this was not true, there would be no need to even include this in scripture. The IF if the key word. Those who do, do so with all their heart. Yes, there are those who have done this.

Other than Judas, is there a place that says there are those who have done this thing? Or is there simply a statement saying if it happened, there would be no return?

[kross]

So if WE can be eternally lost after having received everlasting life, then JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF will finally be lost TOO because He dwells within each truly born-again Christian believer!! Then what a lugubrious & plodding NON-eternal "everlasting" relationship it will turn out to have been, yes? Saved today, lost tomorrow, "re-saved", then "re-lost", then...........I love it, Oh, I love it, but will all this play in Peoria?

Just as we deal with our children individually, God deals with His children individually.

We teach our children with the expectation that they will learn, grow, and mature.

As they grow we expect them to take on more responsibility according to their own

level of maturity, and as they take on more responsibility they are given more privileges.

When their responsibilities are not upheld their privileges are suspended, but our love for them is not.

We discipline them appropriately, but we do not disown them and kick them out of the family.

You are absolutely right. God will never kick us out of His family. Maybe you can help me understand something that is missing here. What if the child leaves and never returns, disowning the family and their name, forsaking his birthrights as if there was no family, as in being dead to him? Will the parents then force their will on the one who says they are dead to him?

You see, every example that has been given so far points to those who have not completely turned from Christ. I have not read in any of the posts where anyone has, in their heart, completely believed that there is no God. Even in my backslidden years, I knew God was real, but I just didn't want to obey, but rather, fulfill the desires of my flesh. Yet, there are those who once were His, that have said in their heart that there is no God. People just don't want to believe that this can happen, where I do. The reason is, if it is true, then it can happen to them and they are not willing to accept this possibility.

Why do you think you didn't cross the line of not coming back to God though? Why did God allow you to come back when you were living for the flesh, yet He allows some others to slip away for good? Isn't it God who keeps drawing us back?

Ah, Deep, there is the rub. Some think GOD just kind woos us and we can just say no and that will be just too bad for us. Others, like me, believe GOD will save those whom HE is going to save. That idea offends some, and so they believe they chose GOD and they can unchoose GOD. It is alway about which came first, THE HOLY SPIRIT or the confession of faith.

Do i take you correctly assuming then you believer we have no free will? Do you also then believe that God intentionally made some people without a chance for heaven, and decided for them before tey were even born that He chose them for hell?h

Do you mind if I answer the question with a question?

Do you think it wrong that GOD determined to regard Israel and not any of the other nations? That HE would just destroy men, women, children, infants, and pregnant women as well as alll there animals simply because HE never chose them to be HIS people and never gave them HIS laws. (Keeping in mind that this was way before HE ever said HE would write the truth on their hearts)

Because it has always been GOD's way to create a people whom He calls HIS own and a people for whom HE has no regard. The difference being that now they have the truth written on their hearts so none will be able to stand before HIM and say, "I did not know"

[OneLight]

You are correct in that I do not believe in free will. I believe the will of man is the weakest of three wills at work in the world. GOD's, Satan's and man's. If a man is left a captive to sin and Satan, he will not turn to GOD. If GOD, on the other hand, intervenes in the life of a captive, than that person will turn from sin and Satan to GOD. If GOD does nothing but nulify Satan's influence, than a man will serve his flesh. Thus we are given the HOLY SPIRIT to guide us so that, while we may devise our way, the LORD directs our steps.

These verses point to a free will where one is instructed to submit. If we had no free will, there would be no need to be told to submit, nor would there be any double-minded people whom they would address. Now, if Satan's will was greater then mans, why would he flee? If Satan's will was greater then mans, why are not all the unsaved possessed by his demons? You give Satan way too much power.

James 4:7-8 (New King James Version)

Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Regardless of whether or not one believes in free will, it is certain that if GOD determines that one is to go left when one is intending to go right, GOD is able to give the perfect nudge or alteration in the current condition to cause that person to choose to go left.

Guess Adam and Eve was nudged by God to eat the forbidden fruit? Guess it was Gods nudge that told the Hebrew people to build a golden calf as Moses sought the will of God on Mt Sinai. You words would lead me to think this because by your standards, God determined them to go left when they were going right. Wrong!

GOD's promise in scripture is that all who call on HIM will be saved. That is a promise. It doesn't say that all who call on HIM will be put into a group that, if they are good enough, will be saved. There is more to calling on HIM than just speaking a word or two. "IF you believe in your heart that JESUS is the son of GOD, and confess HIM with your mouth, THAN you will be saved". That "believe in your heart" is a HUGE thing. Until one is "Born again", one cannot believe a spiritual truth, for they are spiritually discerned. JESUS and salvation are spiritual truths. They are not achieved from "Head Knowledge", they are Heart knowledge.

I agree. Those so seek salvation will receive it. That is never been the issue here.

We are given the HOLY SPIRIT to seal us unto the day of redemption. We have recieved the spirit of adoption by which we cry out ABA FATHER. HE will not un-adopt us and HE will not allow those HE has saved, and in whom HE dwells, to be lost. The whole point of "In my weakness HE is made strong" is that when I am too weak to "Keep myself saved", HE is too strong to loose HIS grip. I do not need to keep holding on to HIS hand. HIS hand is holding onto me.

God never forces Himself on anyone. He has given us the ability to freely choose whether or not we will follow Him. I agree. If someone who is saved does not want to turn away, there is nothing that can remove him from God. BUT ... If a person no longer wants to follow God, God will not force Himself on them. This brings us back to the scripture given to you before.

Revelation 3:5

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Hebrews 6:1-8

Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

I know that we see these points of doctrine differently. I like these discussions because they bring out both points. I do not think I will ever change the mind of one who has studied and found a point of view that is different than mine. But i do know that my understanding is true, just as you know for certain that your understanding is true.

"Now unto HIM who is able to keep you from falling, and present you blameless before the throne, be allpower and glory and dominion for ever. Amen"

Why? Because it's all about JESUS. And HE IS ABLE to keep you from falling. HE is. Really. Able to keep you from falling. Back to you;

Is HE willing to keep you from falling?

To be completely honest with you, Kross, for the life of me, I will never understand why anyone who has found salvation in Christ would ever turn their back on Christ, but scripture tells us they can and do. If I seek His help, He is able and willing to keep me from falling. This has ever been a part of this debate. I will go to my death defending the fact that those who seek Him, He will never loose. Still, there are "those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come", that fall away. If this was not true, there would be no need to even include this in scripture. The IF if the key word. Those who do, do so with all their heart. Yes, there are those who have done this.

Other than Judas, is there a place that says there are those who have done this thing? Or is there simply a statement saying if it happened, there would be no return?

James 5:19-20 (New King James Version)

Bring Back the Erring One

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

[kross]

Please, don't give me that kindergarten "what's a matter. you afraid" nonsense.

You think you are going to lead me by the nose. Not going to happen. I am more than willing to go back and forth with you for the next 100 years. But it will be back and forth. Either you answer my questions or I will not answer yours.

Your attitude suggests that you're not a patient man. Not a good quality for someone who thinks of themself as a teacher.

You will learn more from answering the questions I ask than from me answerring yours.

Not very humble either.

But you're right. The more you say, the more you establish my point.

It's ok if you are unable to answer my question. I just thought....................

You can't say it can you? That's OK, I will say it for you. You do not trust JESUS to keep you from falling and to present you blameless before the throne. You are trusting in yourself to do it. Maybe with HIS help, but you do not trust HIM to keep you from falling and to present you blameless before the throne.

And that lack of trust is the foundation of your doctrin on keeping saved.

I, on the other hand, trust HIM with my life and my very soul. I know HE will keep me from falling and present me faultless before the throne. I wish you had this blessed assurance.

You see, I gave HIM my life and it is now HIS to do with as HE pleases. Bought and paid for. Completely owned by HIM. All that I am or ever will be is entirely up to HIM. Should HE choose not to honor HIS promise to save me, than I would be lost. But, I trust HIM with all that i am and every fiber of my being.

So, HE keeps me on the righteous path. HE does good works through me. HE will keep me to the end.

[kross]

In these discussion, the issue of free will inevitably comes up. Do we have free will or do we not.

I believe that GOD is in control. I believe that HE is orchestrating the events of the world and placing people in government office and giving some armies victory and some defeat. I believe HE topples governments and raises governments up. As scripture tells us, "The heart of the king is in HIS hand andHE twists and turns it like a river whereever HE wants it to go".

Most sort of believe in this big picture. But in order for the big picture to work, GOD needs to be orchestrating it all. Thus, I am convinced that GOD is orchestrating the lives of 8 Billion people at one time (Which absolutely amazes and awes me) in order that the world will go the direction HE has said it will in HIS word. HIS prophets and JESUS as well told us what GOD was going to do with HIS creation.

So, do we have free will?

In that we make our own choices, yes we do. Neither GOD nor Satan make choices for us. However, both of them know exactly how to exert the right influence to get us to do exactly what they want us to do.

A man without the influence of GOD will do exactly what Satan intends for him to do. Satan and all demons are still under the control of JESUS. They do as HE says. IF HE does not intervene, they do as they please. We see that all through HIS ministry.

If GOD wants a person to do something, HE knows exactly what it takes to influence that person to do exactly what HE wants. HE does not need to "force" them. They will do it of their "own free will". This includes stepping aside and letting Satan stear us wrong, if needs be.

So, do we have free will? I my opinion, the will is only as free as it fits into what GOD has planned and intends for each person. Until GOD intervenes and the HOLY SPIRIT knocks Satan to the side, the will is not free.

In the life of HIS chosen children, HE allows us to stumble, HE cleans us up, HE puts us on the path HE has intended for us, HE keeps us on the path HE has intended for us, and in the end;

Those HE foreknew, HE predestined. Those HE predestined, these HE called. Those HE called, these HE also justified, glorified, and sanctified.

All thing work for the good of those who love GOD, who are THE CALLED according to HIS purpose.

Now unto HIM who is able to keep you from falling, and present you blameless before the throne of GOD, be all power and glory and dominion forever and ever. AMEN

[godrulz]

Compatibilism is still deterministic, not free will.

God is in control without being all-controlling. He is able to providentially, responsively, creatively bring His project to pass in the end (He will triumph over evil) without micromanaging (He macromanages) every detail (as evidenced by how messed up things are, contrary to His perfection).

Sovereignty is not omnicausality/meticulous control (making God responsible for heinous evil). In light of His omnicompetence, this form of control is unwise and unnecessary. We are responsible for our choices because they are genuine, not illusory.

[canuckamuck]

Compatibilism is still deterministic, not free will.

God is in control without being all-controlling. He is able to providentially, responsively, creatively bring His project to pass in the end (He will triumph over evil) without micromanaging (He macromanages) every detail (as evidenced by how messed up things are, contrary to His perfection).

Sovereignty is not omnicausality/meticulous control (making God responsible for heinous evil). In light of His omnicompetence, this form of control is unwise and unnecessary. We are responsible for our choices because they are genuine, not illusory.

You said a lot with a little, well done.

[pokemaughan]

Compatibilism is still deterministic, not free will.

God is in control without being all-controlling. He is able to providentially, responsively, creatively bring His project to pass in the end (He will triumph over evil) without micromanaging (He macromanages) every detail (as evidenced by how messed up things are, contrary to His perfection).

Sovereignty is not omnicausality/meticulous control (making God responsible for heinous evil). In light of His omnicompetence, this form of control is unwise and unnecessary. We are responsible for our choices because they are genuine, not illusory.

You said a lot with a little, well done.

Definitely, good stuff

[Guest man]

In that we make our own choices, yes we do. Neither GOD nor Satan make choices for us. However, both of them know exactly how to exert the right influence to get us to do exactly what they want us to do.

A man without the influence of GOD will do exactly what Satan intends for him to do. Satan and all demons are still under the control of JESUS. They do as HE says. IF HE does not intervene, they do as they please. We see that all through HIS ministry.

If GOD wants a person to do something, HE knows exactly what it takes to influence that person to do exactly what HE wants. HE does not need to "force" them. They will do it of their "own free will". This includes stepping aside and letting Satan stear us wrong, if needs be.

Have you considered His servant Job?

You can't say it can you? That's OK, I will say it for you. You do not trust JESUS to keep you from falling and to present you blameless before the throne. You are trusting in yourself to do it. Maybe with HIS help, but you do not trust HIM to keep you from falling and to present you blameless before the throne.

And that lack of trust is the foundation of your doctrin on keeping saved.

I, on the other hand, trust HIM with my life and my very soul. I know HE will keep me from falling and present me faultless before the throne. I wish you had this blessed assurance.

Ecclesiastes 5

2 Do not be rash with your mouth, And let not your heart utter anything hastily before God. For God is in heaven, and you on earth; Therefore let your words be few.

3 For a dream comes through much activity, And a fool

[Rhonda Lou]

I give thanks that a new Christian doesn't have to get involved with or understand all of these deep theological arguments and debates. Salvation is simple enough for a child to understand, and the best way to come to God is in simple, childlike faith.

Mature Christians should know there are no contradictions in the Holy Bible - not one. Coming to this realization means learning how to study God's Word - rightly dividing the Word of Truth. This isn't simple, but it isn't required for Salvation. Most of the methods of Bible Study do involve common sense: 1) The writer; 2) The intended audience; 3) The purpose; 4) The content in context. I realize this is a gross simplification, but it's a start. The easiest way to misunderstand something is to take a portion of Scripture out of context and form some sort of doctrine with it.

If two portions of Scripture appear to contradict each other, the first thing to know is they don't. Finding out why they don't contradict each other involves Bible Study, lots of effort, and rightly dividing the Word of Truth. Again, I give thanks that the lost don't have to understand all of this. I'm certain that the lost get confused in hearing or seeing the deeper discussions of God's Word. The answers to the complex theological debates aren't nearly as important as how to be Saved, and why one would want to be Saved. That lost person might have a lifetime to try and understand some of the deeper things of God, but they might also be living in their last hours or minutes of this short life. One of the most important things a lost person can learn first is God Loves them, God wants to save them, God never lies, and God always keeps His Promises. For the mature Christian, these basic facts should always be kept in mind, regardless of how mature and knowledgeable they think they might be. There are only two conditions that matter the most, and there are no in betweens: 1) In Christ (Saved); 2) Not In Christ (lost). The following portion of Scripture speaks volumes about the most important issues of this short life:

2 Corinthians 4:1-18 KJV 1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. 8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; 10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. 12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you. 13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. 15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. 16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

nChrist

This thread began as a topic of once saved/always saved by believers, and so that is why not much has been offered about salvation itself. However, I just have to applaud you, particularly on 2 Corinthians 4:1-18 -- it is one of my very favorite passages. I notice that you go by "In Christ" -- and that is extremely special to me also. It is God in us which saves us, and He is in our broken, earthen bodies so that people will see the exxency of the power of God. Thank you for trying to throw perspective on heated debates by bringing us back to salvation.