loosing salvation

[OneLight]

1 Corinthians 13:9-12 (New King James Version)

For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

That which is perfect is perfect truth. Jesus is this perfect truth. We will not know as we are known until we are with Him. Until then, we have His word, and the guidance of His Spirit to guide us, if we choose to listen and accept. Being a creation that is not perfect, we read the same scripture and come up with different views. We can only seek His will in our lives and try to understand the mysteries of God.

God is a God of pure love and pure love does not manipulate. Through His love, He opens doors for us to walk through, shines the light on our paths and is there to help us when we need and ask for it. God knows our hearts better then we do and He will act accordingly. He never pushes His will where it is not wanted. That would not be love.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8 (New King James Version)

Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

Before He even created anything, God knew who would accept Him and who would not. Through this knowledge, He appears to some as a God who will control people according to His will, but the truth is, He knows the beginning from the end and does not need to do anything of the such.

God, if all He wanted to do is control everything, would have done just that from the beginning. He would have created more angles to worship Him, but He did not. He created man in His image. He gave man the ability to choose from the very beginning and set only one rule in front of him. . Man now had a choice to obey or not to obey.

Genesis 2:16-17 (New King James Version)

[Rhonda Lou]

So if WE can be eternally lost after having received everlasting life, then JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF will finally be lost TOO because He dwells within each truly born-again Christian believer!! Then what a lugubrious & plodding NON-eternal "everlasting" relationship it will turn out to have been, yes? Saved today, lost tomorrow, "re-saved", then "re-lost", then...........I love it, Oh, I love it, but will all this play in Peoria?

Just as we deal with our children individually, God deals with His children individually.

We teach our children with the expectation that they will learn, grow, and mature.

As they grow we expect them to take on more responsibility according to their own

level of maturity, and as they take on more responsibility they are given more privileges.

When their responsibilities are not upheld their privileges are suspended, but our love for them is not.

We discipline them appropriately, but we do not disown them and kick them out of the family.

You are absolutely right. God will never kick us out of His family. Maybe you can help me understand something that is missing here. What if the child leaves and never returns, disowning the family and their name, forsaking his birthrights as if there was no family, as in being dead to him? Will the parents then force their will on the one who says they are dead to him?

You see, every example that has been given so far points to those who have not completely turned from Christ. I have not read in any of the posts where anyone has, in their heart, completely believed that there is no God. Even in my backslidden years, I knew God was real, but I just didn't want to obey, but rather, fulfill the desires of my flesh. Yet, there are those who once were His, that have said in their heart that there is no God. People just don't want to believe that this can happen, where I do. The reason is, if it is true, then it can happen to them and they are not willing to accept this possibility.

Why do you think you didn't cross the line of not coming back to God though? Why did God allow you to come back when you were living for the flesh, yet He allows some others to slip away for good? Isn't it God who keeps drawing us back?

Ah, Deep, there is the rub. Some think GOD just kind woos us and we can just say no and that will be just too bad for us. Others, like me, believe GOD will save those whom HE is going to save. That idea offends some, and so they believe they chose GOD and they can unchoose GOD. It is alway about which came first, THE HOLY SPIRIT or the confession of faith.

Do i take you correctly assuming then you believer we have no free will? Do you also then believe that God intentionally made some people without a chance for heaven, and decided for them before tey were even born that He chose them for hell?h

Do you mind if I answer the question with a question?

Do you think it wrong that GOD determined to regard Israel and not any of the other nations? That HE would just destroy men, women, children, infants, and pregnant women as well as alll there animals simply because HE never chose them to be HIS people and never gave them HIS laws. (Keeping in mind that this was way before HE ever said HE would write the truth on their hearts)

Because it has always been GOD's way to create a people whom He calls HIS own and a people for whom HE has no regard. The difference being that now they have the truth written on their hearts so none will be able to stand before HIM and say, "I did not know"

Please explain this Scripture: "For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples: but because the Lord loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh, king od Egypt." (Deuteronomy 7:6-8) Or this one: "Out of heaven He LET you hear His voice, that He might instruct you; on earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words out of the midst of the fire. And because He loved your fathers, therefore He chose their descendants after them; and He brought you out of Egypt with His Presence, with His mighty power, driving out from before you nations greater and mightier than you, to bring you in, to give you their land as an inheritance, as it is to this day. (Deuteronomy 4:36-38)

Yes, I believe that God chose Israel from all of the other nations. People believe that if God does that, then He is not loving. But, if you are married or if you have friends, doesn't that mean that you "chose them" from the world itself? You did not choose everyone, but you chose some to be friends and spouses. Do you hate everybody else? Do you try to do them harm? Don't you continue to help everybody, feed the poor, listen to those who are hurting, etc? If you do that, how much more will your heavenly Father love those He has created? In Matthew 5:45, Jesus says that the Father "makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." Psalm 145:8-9 says, "The Lord is gracious, and full of compassion, slow to anger and great in mercy. The Lord is good to ALL, and His tender mercies are over ALL His works." Acts 14:15b-17, says that God, "who made the heaven, and earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, who in bygone generations allowed all nations to walk in their own ways. Nevertheless He did not leave Himself without witness in that He did good, gave us rain from heaven and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness." God's offer of salvation is to all (see Isaiah 55:1; Revelation 22:17; John 3:16, and so on). God's love is to everybody, but He shows special love for the chosen. Yet the Bible makes it clear that He has a special love toward the elect, just as we do more for our friends and spouses than we do for others. As I have stated earlier, both predestination and free will passages are in the Bible, so both must be valid. It is dangeous to skip some in lieu of others. None of us totally understand how they both work, but none of the passages should be ignored because all are in the Bible.

[Rhonda Lou]

Compatibilism is still deterministic, not free will.

God is in control without being all-controlling. He is able to providentially, responsively, creatively bring His project to pass in the end (He will triumph over evil) without micromanaging (He macromanages) every detail (as evidenced by how messed up things are, contrary to His perfection).

Sovereignty is not omnicausality/meticulous control (making God responsible for heinous evil). In light of His omnicompetence, this form of control is unwise and unnecessary. We are responsible for our choices because they are genuine, not illusory.

I do not believe that free will is illusory, but I do believe in predestination, and not simply foreknowledge. My belief is that there is a heavenly perspective, and an earthly perspective. There are "laws" governing heaven, and those governing earth. God is in charge of the heavenly realm, but the prince of the "air" which rules here is Satan. God has allowed this to happen for a time. God knows all, we don't. In earthly terms, I would liken it to the president of any country knowing things that average citizens do not know -- we don't "travel" in the circles to know everything that the president or king or prime minister would know which would affect a country. Or, in even closer terms, a worker may not be aware of everything the supervisor knows. When the superisor, or the prime minister/president/king/queen (whatever) tells us to do something, we usually do it because we obey our masters. Parents know more than children, and ask children to do things they don't understand, and good children obey. Now, none of us HAVE to obey -- we have the free will to say, "No, I won't do that." Yet we don't. We generally obey. Why? Is it because we don't have a choice? No, it is because we trust that leaders know stuff we don't, or it is because we've been disobedient before and paid the consequences, or because we fear losing our jobs. But, the leaders make decisions and act according to having much more information than we have. We base our decisions and act on the less information we have. However, it may "feel" like we have no choice since we just do what we are told, with no thought of differing from our norm. Yet, we have freely made our choice to be obedient -- it is not an illusion.

No human counterpart covers all of the angles. We are told that the reality is heaven. Everything on earth is a shadow of things to come, now we see in a mirror dimly, we are to think about heavenly things, not earthly things, we are citizens of heaven, pilgrims on earth. In every way, heaven, GOD'S realm is the reality. Therefore, I believe that GOD'S realm of predestination trumps our realm of free will. However, the Bible is clear that both exist: predestination and free will. To say that God is in heaven waiting to see what we'll do before deciding what He'll do, or that God knows what we will do and acts accordingly, I believe does not allow God to be the leader -- He becomes dependent upon OUR actions -- when HE is the one with all of the facts and the power. We don't always understand all His game plan because we don't know everything, but we trust Him, and where the Bible preaches both, we believe both -- not one or the other, but both. I believe that God brings order out of chaos, and balance, so the balanced view is to believe both exist. Faith without works is dead, but works without faith is equally dead. The Pharisees and Sadduces had works and no faith. Jesus says, "I never knew you; depart from me." But faith that does not act, or allow God to live through us is also dead. If God is sovereign and we are robots, there seems to be little love. If we make all of the choices and don't lallow that God has all of the power and knowledge, loves us, and works on our behalf, then we have a different view of God than the one in the Bible. Free will is not illusory, but it is under the guidelines of God's sovereign predestination.

[EricH]

Moved from General Discussion to Doctrinal Questions

[kross]

In that we make our own choices, yes we do. Neither GOD nor Satan make choices for us. However, both of them know exactly how to exert the right influence to get us to do exactly what they want us to do.

A man without the influence of GOD will do exactly what Satan intends for him to do. Satan and all demons are still under the control of JESUS. They do as HE says. IF HE does not intervene, they do as they please. We see that all through HIS ministry.

If GOD wants a person to do something, HE knows exactly what it takes to influence that person to do exactly what HE wants. HE does not need to "force" them. They will do it of their "own free will". This includes stepping aside and letting Satan stear us wrong, if needs be.

Have you considered His servant Job?

You can't say it can you? That's OK, I will say it for you. You do not trust JESUS to keep you from falling and to present you blameless before the throne. You are trusting in yourself to do it. Maybe with HIS help, but you do not trust HIM to keep you from falling and to present you blameless before the throne.

And that lack of trust is the foundation of your doctrin on keeping saved.

I, on the other hand, trust HIM with my life and my very soul. I know HE will keep me from falling and present me faultless before the throne. I wish you had this blessed assurance.

Ecclesiastes 5

2 Do not be rash with your mouth, And let not your heart utter anything hastily before God. For God is in heaven, and you on earth; Therefore let your words be few.

3 For a dream comes through much activity, And a fool

[godrulz]

God is willing and able (Jude 24-25), but He also wants children in relationship, not coerced robots.

Just as the saving grace and power of God is resisted by people before conversion (universalism is not true, despite God's desire to save all men in love), so the keeping grace and power of the Spirit can be rejected leading to apostasy/falling away/rejection of great light even to the point of severing the relationship that involves two parties (God's faithfulness does not preclude us from becoming faithless as Scripture sternly warns; hence universalism and OSAS is not true except in a decretal/deterministic scenario foreign to God's self-revelation).

[kross]

God is willing and able (Jude 24-25), but He also wants children in relationship, not coerced robots.

Just as the saving grace and power of God is resisted by people before conversion (universalism is not true, despite God's desire to save all men in love), so the keeping grace and power of the Spirit can be rejected leading to apostasy/falling away/rejection of great light even to the point of severing the relationship that involves two parties (God's faithfulness does not preclude us from becoming faithless as Scripture sternly warns; hence universalism and OSAS is not true except in a decretal/deterministic scenario foreign to God's self-revelation).

You seem to consider GOD lovingly being involved with and influening the lives of HIS beloved children as some kind of outrageous interference. The more GOD controls my life, the happier I am. Please make me a robot.

Since I pray, HIS wil be done, I expect HIM to answer that pray and see to it HIS will is done. I do not want to make my own decissions.

So, if you do not want GOD to interfere in your life and make decission for you and "Coerce" you into doing what HE thinks is best, OK. I get it.

Me, I'm glad to be a robot and to be loved so much by my GOD and FRIEND that HE will never leave me and HE will keep me from falling and present me blameless before the throne.

Cuz I know that JESUS will loose none of those the FATHER has give to HIM and I am one whom the FATHER has given to HIM.

So. I get it. You do not want that type of relationship. OK. Perhaps you have seen scriptures that say you can not have that type of relationship with HIM. OK.

But HE has prooved to me that I am HIS eternally. HE has proved to me that HE is able to take the flawed pieces of this ugly pot and make them perfect. This HE has proved to me.

Just for the record, HE has proved to me that my name is etched permanantly in the LAMBS book of life and that it was placed there from the beginning of the world by the GOD who chose me for salvation before there was a person to save. This I know for a fact. If I am the only one HE has chosen and all else have chosen HIM, then so be it. IF I am the only one who can trust that JESUS has saved my soul and wll keep me. So be it. But if there is one thing I know, it is that HE is the power that saves and sustaines.

[Guest man]

You are correct in that I do not believe in free will.

You say you don't believe in free will and then you turn around and say this,

If GOD wants a person to do something, HE knows exactly what it takes to influence that person to do exactly what HE wants. HE does not need to "force" them. They will do it of their "own free will".

And here you put God and satan on the same plane,

Neither GOD nor Satan make choices for us. However, both of them know exactly how to exert the right influence to get us to do exactly what they want us to do.

Satan can only do what God lets him do.

And here's another false statement,

A man without the influence of GOD will do exactly what Satan intends for him to do.

One would think that someone who studied the bible daily for 20 years would know that the devil can't make anyone do anything.

You could start by telling me..........

Your credibility is lacking, so I'm not going to waste my time.

If you feel the need to call me names, you can do that. I won't be offended. I actually expect it.

[godrulz]

Kross: You confusing loving obedience, yielding, relating, surrender, God's influence/persuasion/wooing with coercion/causation/robotics. You can think of yourself as in a deterministic Matrix (blueprint vs warfare model of sovereignty), but it is not the biblical view that resonates with reality. The imperatives (commands) and exhortations in Scripture contradict your simplistic worldview that removes personal responsibility/accountability. The Bible and God is relational, not robotic.

God rules inanimate creation through the law of cause and effect.

He rules animate creation through the law of instinct.

He rules the pinnacle of creation, free moral agents, through the law of love (not coerced, by definition), relationship, freedom.

Creation is in rebellion. Christians do not always do His will (sin is contrary to His will). Some deny their first love and revert to godless unbelief (note that God does not treat us like sock puppets nor automatons, but as maturing children who may need discipline or snatching from the fire).

I Thess. 4:1-12; Lk. 7:30; Matthew 23:37; Rom. 6:13-16; Rom. 12:1-2; 2 Cor. 7:1; Heb. 6:4-6; I Peter 1:13-16; 2 Peter 1:3-11, Jn. 3:16 vs Jn. 3:36; I Jn. 5:11-13, etc. only make sense in a non-monergistic, non-deterministic, free will theism (even monergistic Calvinists like Sproul recognize that sanctification is cooperative/synergistic).

We can have assurance and security from the Spirit and Word without resorting to extreme, unbiblical OSAS ideas (manmade leading to false assurance for apostates).

[kross]

Kross: You confusing loving obedience, yielding, relating, surrender, God's influence/persuasion/wooing with coercion/causation/robotics. You can think of yourself as in a deterministic Matrix (blueprint vs warfare model of sovereignty), but it is not the biblical view that resonates with reality. The imperatives (commands) and exhortations in Scripture contradict your simplistic worldview that removes personal responsibility/accountability. The Bible and God is relational, not robotic.

God rules inanimate creation through the law of cause and effect.

He rules animate creation through the law of instinct.

He rules the pinnacle of creation, free moral agents, through the law of love (not coerced, by definition), relationship, freedom.

Creation is in rebellion. Christians do not always do His will (sin is contrary to His will). Some deny their first love and revert to godless unbelief (note that God does not treat us like sock puppets nor automatons, but as maturing children who may need discipline or snatching from the fire).

I Thess. 4:1-12; Lk. 7:30; Matthew 23:37; Rom. 6:13-16; Rom. 12:1-2; 2 Cor. 7:1; Heb. 6:4-6; I Peter 1:13-16; 2 Peter 1:3-11, Jn. 3:16 vs Jn. 3:36; I Jn. 5:11-13, etc. only make sense in a non-monergistic, non-deterministic, free will theism (even monergistic Calvinists like Sproul recognize that sanctification is cooperative/synergistic).

We can have assurance and security from the Spirit and Word without resorting to extreme, unbiblical OSAS ideas (manmade leading to false assurance for apostates).

Just for the record, I am not the one who called it coercion or being a robot or forcing HIS will on people. I was just repeating what you called it. I wrote a whole post on how GOD nudges and prods and loves on HIS people in a way that makes them want to do for HIM and serve HIM.

It is clear to me that you and I have a different relationship with GOD through JESUS CHRIST. That is OK. That is why it is a relationship and not a religion.

That may even be why there are scriptures in the Bible that point to both. GOD brings to life the scriptures that fit the relationship HE has with the person reading them.