The Shema and the Trinity

[BlindSeeker]

So, can you present some biblical examples to support such usage as you describe other than the Shema?

[WolfBitn]

So, can you present some biblical examples to support such usage as you describe other than the Shema?

Sure Blindseeker

Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.

^^^ our dry land sits on seperate continents on their own tectonic plates. These were gathered into one

Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

^^^ Two becoming one

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

one = all mankind in this case

Those are just a few right in the beginning of the book

[BlindSeeker]

i believe it is certianly appropriate to refer to God in the plural being united as one Everlasting One, if God Himself dictated that He is a plurality, and He did... shouldnt we allow Him to speak for Himself? Note that you have to agree the plural for OUR GODS is actually used in this case... i prefer believing God over an interpretation that changes the meaning of the words that He actually dictated and inspired. Note in EVERY instance where the noun is plural, echad joins them as one, with no exception

Actually I don't think I "have to agree."

Perhaps if you can produce some Jewish writing where they refer to Jehovah as "Our Gods" it may gain a minute measure of credibility. But those whose language it is never understood or translated it that way into another language that I know of . . . why haven't they?

By the way, I too believe God and His word and I have never disallowed God to speak for Himself . . . nor could any being of heaven and earth.

[BlindSeeker]

Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.

^^^ our dry land sits on seperate continents on their own tectonic plates. These were gathered into one

Perhaps you could formulate your statement clearer. I really do not understand what it is you are saying about the verse submitted.

Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

^^^ Two becoming one

The flesh of the male and the flesh of the woman temporarily join physically as one flesh through sexual intercourse. Nevertheless, they remain distinctly separate except for the male penetration into the woman revealing the Royal design that they were thus made for such a function for the imparting of the seed of life.

Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

The type and shadow of lawful sexual intercourse is actually representative of Christ and the Church, Him in us impart the word of life whereby we are quicken . . . and we certainly are not echad/one with Christ as the Shema proclaims

[WolfBitn]

Perhaps if you can produce some Jewish writing where they refer to Jehovah as "Our Gods" it may gain a minute measure of credibility. But those whose language it is never understood or translated it that way into another language that I know of . . . why haven't they?

By the way, I too believe God and His word and I have never disallowed God to speak for Himself . . . nor could any being of heaven and earth.

The Judacia Press, Tanakh with Rashi, The British foreign Bibles society 1866 Masoretic text,, The Jewish Publication society copy of Torah in Hebrew, all use Eloheynu.

from the Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine www.ancient-hebrew.org/emagazine/019.doc

"The base word [my note:Elohim]also has the suffix My (iym) indicating a plural noun"

From Lev Shalom www.levshalom.org/article_rj.html

"Eloheinu is the first-person plural possessive form of the Hebrew noun Elohim, which is translated "God" but literally means "our God." Yet strangely, this plural noun is virtually always translated as a singular."

From Zion my chosen www.zionmychosen.com/index_files/Page368.htm

"Deut. 6:4 says Hear O Israel Yahweh our Gods are Yahweh a Unity (echad is the Hebrew for one here and it always means compound unity, e.g. the evening and the morning were echad - one day. The entire nation of Israel stood together as echad- one man, etc.) The actual translation in the Hebrew of

[BlindSeeker]

Perhaps if you can produce some Jewish writing where they refer to Jehovah as "Our Gods" it may gain a minute measure of credibility. But those whose language it is never understood or translated it that way into another language that I know of . . . why haven't they?

By the way, I too believe God and His word and I have never disallowed God to speak for Himself . . . nor could any being of heaven and earth.

The Judacia Press, Tanakh with Rashi, The British foreign Bibles society 1866 Masoretic text,, The Jewish Publication society copy of Torah in Hebrew, all use Eloheynu.

from the Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine www.ancient-hebrew.org/emagazine/019.doc

"The base word [my note:Elohim]also has the suffix My (iym) indicating a plural noun"

From Lev Shalom www.levshalom.org/article_rj.html

"Eloheinu is the first-person plural possessive form of the Hebrew noun Elohim, which is translated "God" but literally means "our God." Yet strangely, this plural noun is virtually always translated as a singular."

Ok . . . so what?

From Zion my chosen www.zionmychosen.com/index_files/Page368.htm

"Deut. 6:4 says Hear O Israel Yahweh our Gods are Yahweh a Unity (echad is the Hebrew for one here and it always means compound unity, e.g. the evening and the morning were echad - one day. The entire nation of Israel stood together as echad- one man, etc.) The actual translation in the Hebrew of

[WolfBitn]

Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.

^^^ our dry land sits on seperate continents on their own tectonic plates. These were gathered into one

Perhaps you could formulate your statement clearer. I really do not understand what it is you are saying about the verse submitted.

Our world is broken up into continents. Our continents sit on tectonic plates. Most people agree that this world once was unified as one land mass and the bible agrees. The bible even says the continents were broken up in the days of Peleg.

7 continents, on seperate tectonic plates, gathered as one supercontinent

name='WolfBitn' post='1408837' date='Aug 2 2009, 02:29 AM']Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

^^^ Two becoming one

The flesh of the male and the flesh of the woman temporarily join physically as one flesh through sexual intercourse. Nevertheless, they remain distinctly separate except for the male penetration into the woman revealing the Royal design that they were thus made for such a function for the imparting of the seed of life.

Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

The type and shadow of lawful sexual intercourse is actually representative of Christ and the Church, Him in us impart the word of life whereby we are quicken . . . and we certainly are not echad/one with Christ as the Shema proclaims

[WolfBitn]

Ok . . . so what?

So you asked for jewish writings and i gave you at least 7

From Zion my chosen www.zionmychosen.com/index_files/Page368.htm

"Deut. 6:4 says Hear O Israel Yahweh our Gods are Yahweh a Unity (echad is the Hebrew for one here and it always means compound unity, e.g. the evening and the morning were echad - one day. The entire nation of Israel stood together as echad- one man, etc.) The actual translation in the Hebrew of

[nebula]

I am just playing bystander to this discussion. But I have a question to Shiloh and BlindSeeker with regard to what WlfBitn said about the word Eloheynu.

In Genesis, and all through the OT, God is called, in the Hebrew, "Elohim", which is the plural for "God" but here we have Eloheynu. This is nothing more than "Elohim" in the first person plural possessive, which causes us to add an "Our" to the noun. This word then literally means "Our Gods"... in the plural

That is, how would you say Eloheynu should be understood to mean.

Second question.

I have often been puzzled by, "The Lord your God, the Lord is One."

Why is not not said, "The Lord your God is the only God" or something like that?

[BlindSeeker]

I am just playing bystander to this discussion. But I have a question to Shiloh and BlindSeeker with regard to what WlfBitn said about the word Eloheynu.

In Genesis, and all through the OT, God is called, in the Hebrew, "Elohim", which is the plural for "God" but here we have Eloheynu. This is nothing more than "Elohim" in the first person plural possessive, which causes us to add an "Our" to the noun. This word then literally means "Our Gods"... in the plural

That is, how would you say Eloheynu should be understood to mean.

Hello Sister Nebula,

I believe it was part of the big "mystery" of "God manifested in the flesh."

Ro 16:25 Now to Him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to

the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began

.

I believe even the angels were curious about the God's use of "elohim."

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Second question.

I have often been puzzled by, "The Lord your God, the Lord is One."

Why is not not said, "The Lord your God is the only God" or something like that?

De 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD He is God; there is none else beside Him.

De 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me.

11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour.

12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

13 Yea, before the day was I am He; and there is none that can deliver out of My hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside Me there is no God.

7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for Me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.

8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even My witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside Me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known Me.

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside Me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside Me.

22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

1Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.