The Shema and the Trinity

[BlindSeeker]

This thread is beginning to get personal tones. I suggest that not happen.

lopsided personal tones . . . .

and you sound like a quack . . . .

I mean a duck.

[traveller]

This thread is beginning to get personal tones. I suggest that not happen.

lopsided personal tones . . . .

and you sound like a quack . . . .

I mean a duck.

Duckette, if you don't mind.

[BlindSeeker]

This thread is beginning to get personal tones. I suggest that not happen.

lopsided personal tones . . . .

and you sound like a quack . . . .

I mean a duck.

Duckette, if you don't mind.

Sorry,

You sound like a quackette

Now I duck . . .

[Guest shiloh357]

So Jesus is a seperate individual, and not the Father... The Holy Spirit is a seperate and distinct person.. we have 3 persons who are all God, and yet these 3 Gods are one eternal one... get your shema straight... it doesnt say the 3 eternal ones are God, it says the 3 Gods are ONE ETERNAL ONE

What I said was that these three persons are one eternal God. I did not say there were "3 Gods." You are teaching polytheism as Bind pointed out. You are standing outside the pale of Scripture and are trying to fashion the Bible around your views.

So you just want to change the rules of grammer for one word... because you just cant bring yourself to believe it as its written... thats cool

I am not changing the rules of grammar. I am explaining to you that Hebrew grammar is different than English grammar. There are different rules in play and that has to be taken into account.

Tell me this: Haven't you noticed that the English translators of the Bible translated "Elohim" as God, never as "Gods, but translate "elohim" as "gods" never as "God?" Even in our English Bible, the oneness of Elohim is preserved as it should be and stands in contradiction to your attempt to make "Elohim" mean "Gods." Even the translators recognize the nonnumeric plurality of Elohim.

Yes its that simple... and in this case echad united 3 into one unit according to Hebrew grammer

No it does not. Echad is not used as "unity" in Deut. 6:4. The context does not allow for that. Echad in Deut. 6:4 is describing God's essence and being, not personage. It says that He is ONE God, not a unity of gods. Echad is used some contexts for unity such as when it says in Genesis that husband and wife are "one flesh" It can also refer to singular item. The first day of creation is called "yom echad." In Lev. 14:12 "echad" is used to refer to a single lamb. Word usage always trumps word meaning. It is the way the word is used by author that determines what it means in a particular passage.

Echad is used in Deut. 6:4 to describe ONE singular God. HE is one singular being or entity but at the same time, He is three persons.

Shiloh... tell me who taught you Hebrew

He is a retired Rabbi and a Holocaust survivor. I do not have his permission to use His name pubilically or to give out his personal information to anyone. He is a very ill man and I will not betray his confidences in me. Besides, you are asking for information that is not pertinent to this debate.

You need to stick with the debate at hand.

[WolfBitn]

So Jesus is a seperate individual, and not the Father... The Holy Spirit is a seperate and distinct person.. we have 3 persons who are all God, and yet these 3 Gods are one eternal one... get your shema straight... it doesnt say the 3 eternal ones are God, it says the 3 Gods are ONE ETERNAL ONE

What I said was that these three persons are one eternal God. I did not say there were "3 Gods." You are teaching polytheism as Bind pointed out. You are standing outside the pale of Scripture and are trying to fashion the Bible around your views.

So lets look at your reasoning and compare it with the Shema

You agree Jesus is God and a seperate entity from the Father and the Holy Spirit

You agree the Father is God and an individual

You agree that the Holy Spirit is God and an individual... YET you suddenly change and say no they cant be ALL Gods AND individual... you sound very mixed up to me

You even change the shema saying it states there is ONE eternal God

YHWH Elohim YHWH echad = The ETERNAL ONE (Singluar) is GODS (plural) united as ONE ETERNAL ONE (Singular)

NOT The eternal oneS (plural) are A GOD Singluar

You keep reassigning the singular to the plural and the plural to the singular

So you just want to change the rules of grammer for one word... because you just cant bring yourself to believe it as its written... thats cool

I am not changing the rules of grammar. I am explaining to you that Hebrew grammar is different than English grammar. There are different rules in play and that has to be taken into account.

Tell me this: Haven't you noticed that the English translators of the Bible translated "Elohim" as God, never as "Gods, but translate "elohim" as "gods" never as "God?" Even in our English Bible, the oneness of Elohim is preserved as it should be and stands in contradiction to your attempt to make "Elohim" mean "Gods." Even the translators recognize the nonnumeric plurality of Elohim.

Or they had the same fear and bias as you... Messianic Hebrews do not recognize your theory or a plural greatness, but rather they understand it exactly as i have shown you, and ive given you messianic hebrew literature to prove this

Shiloh... tell me who taught you Hebrew

He is a retired Rabbi and a Holocaust survivor. I do not have his permission to use His name pubilically or to give out his personal information to anyone. He is a very ill man and I will not betray his confidences in me. Besides, you are asking for information that is not pertinent to this debate.

You need to stick with the debate at hand.

It certainly IS pertinant... Do you actually know how to read and write Hebrew? If so are you fluent? Be careful youre about to be tested lol

[WolfBitn]

So Jesus is a seperate individual, and not the Father... The Holy Spirit is a seperate and distinct person.. we have 3 persons who are all God, and yet these 3 Gods are one eternal one... get your shema straight... it doesnt say the 3 eternal ones are God, it says the 3 Gods are ONE ETERNAL ONE

I suggest you get your version of the Shema correct . . . it say nothing about "eternal" or "three gods."

Your version of the Trinity is nothing more than polytheism and is flat out wrong and contrary to the truth of the scriptures.

While Shiloh and I do not agree fully on this subject I can thus far say amen to his words as he has endeavor to patiently reason this with you.

Blind Seeker

"YHWH" is recognized by the Hebrew as meaning "The Eternal One"

Elohim is plural... The root word, Eloah meaning god in the singular. Our Elohim is NEVER referred to in the singular... never

[Guest shiloh357]

Just to make my point a little more concerning nonnumeric plurals, the following is a list of Hebrew words(besides Elohim) that are plural but often appear in the singular denoting the nonnumeric plural. Not all nonumeric plurals are "plurals of intensity/majesty. That is reserved for certain contexts and usages.

Panim = "Face"

Chayim = "Life"

Mayim = "Water."

Adonai = Lord

Rachamim = Mercy

Shamayim = Heaven

Mitzrayim = Egypt

Intensive plurals, also called "majestic" plurals serve the purpose of emphasizing the extraordinary character of an event or magnify the importance of the person being referred to. That is why I used the example previously about blood (dahm). If you wanted to speak of just a drop of blood, you would use "dahm." But if you wanted to say that someone was bleeding profusely and blood was all over the floor, you would use dahmim to express the extraordinary amount of blood present.

[nebula]

So Wolf - do you believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate Gods?

[WolfBitn]

Shiloh i am about to address this last post, but before i do id like an answer to my straight forward quesiton

Do you or do you not read and write Hebrew fluantly?

Also let me ask you something... IF only the Father existed, would He be God? IF only Christ exited would HE be God?

Nebula,

I believe That Jesus is God, yet He is an individual.

I believe the same of the Father and the Holy Spirit, and YET, in a way i will NEVER claim to understand, they are united as ONLY ONE Eternal One.

[Guest shiloh357]

So lets look at your reasoning and compare it with the Shema

You agree Jesus is God and a seperate entity from the Father and the Holy Spirit

No, I do not. I said they are separate persons, not separate entities. Stop putting words in my mouth.

You agree the Father is God and an individual

You agree that the Holy Spirit is God and an individual... YET you suddenly change and say no they cant be ALL Gods AND individual... you sound very mixed up to me

I said nothing of the sort. You are trying to assign a position to me that I have not articulated or even implied. I said that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate persons but ONE singular God. They are not singular gods.

You even change the shema saying it states there is ONE eternal God

YHWH Elohim YHWH echad = The ETERNAL ONE (Singluar) is GODS (plural) united as ONE ETERNAL ONE (Singular)

No, you are the one trying to change the Shema into a polythestic statement. It says, Hear O Israel, The Lord our God, the Lord is ONE. That is what it says. It does not say anything about "Gods." You are butchering the Scriptures and are adding to the Word of God. You are trying to pencil YOUR theology into the Bible.

NOT The eternal oneS (plural) are A GOD Singluar

You keep reassigning the singular to the plural and the plural to the singular

I am just staying with proper Hebrew grammar and with the pure Word of God

Or they had the same fear and bias as you... Messianic Hebrews do not recognize your theory or a plural greatness, but rather they understand it exactly as i have shown you, and ive given you messianic hebrew literature to prove this

The translators had no fear or bias. They simply knew what they were doing and certainly knew Hebrew better than you. I am not interested in what some off the wall Messianic "Hebrew" group thinks. I know the Hebrew language, and I know the difference between good Hebrew and junk theology.

It certainly IS pertinant... Do you actually know how to read and write Hebrew? If so are you fluent? Be careful youre about to be tested lol

No, I am not going to be tested. I am not on trial and I am not the subject of this debate. You will stick to debating the issue and not me. Any attempt to "test" me will simply be ignored, so don't waste your time.