Eschautology

[WolfBitn]

I don't think anyone really understands the timeline.

i think this could be a copout... no offence intended. If God didnt intend for us to understand it likely wouldnt be there. And how can we be blessed if we're not reading for understanding? Solomono said much study is much work... we just need to put the work into it and Ask God for help, but then too He did ordain teachers for a reason

What i recommend is to not expect to jump in digging everything out at once and understanding everything at once. Ive readd them dozens of times each and theres some new understanding every time i read it. I would just begin by reading them 1 at a time, and then going back through in actual study

If youd like help on the timeline, maybe we could do a thread, or even pm

[~candice~]

I don't think anyone really understands the timeline.

i think this could be a copout... no offence intended. If God didnt intend for us to understand it likely wouldnt be there. And how can we be blessed if we're not reading for understanding? Solomono said much study is much work... we just need to put the work into it and Ask God for help, but then too He did ordain teachers for a reason

What i recommend is to not expect to jump in digging everything out at once and understanding everything at once. Ive readd them dozens of times each and theres some new understanding every time i read it. I would just begin by reading them 1 at a time, and then going back through in actual study

If youd like help on the timeline, maybe we could do a thread, or even pm

Nope, not interested in a thread on the timeline, because some people are firmly in the pre-mid-post (or not at all camp). The thread would most likely become one where people try to assert their own position as the right one, and we already have enough of these threads .

[Guest]

.... How do you go about studying something like this?....

In Any Book Of The Bible, Look For Jesus

Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

Psalms 40:7

It's All About Him And His Gentleness And His Mighty Power

Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Hebrews 10:7

Open Up The Book And Ask, Sir, I Would See Jesus......

The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus

John 12:21

For Example

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants.......

Revelation 1:1

And The Big Joy (To Me) Is To Watch The LORD In His Might And Power As He Rescues His Kids And A Little Later On Brings Us All Into Our New Home!

Oh Glory!

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (man @ Aug 1 2009, 11:13 AM)

I don't think anyone really understands the timeline.

i think this could be a copout... no offence intended. If God didnt intend for us to understand it likely wouldnt be there.

That is not true. There are just some things in the Bible that God does not give us enough light about in order for us to be dogmatic. The eschatlogical "timeline" is one of those things. Everyone thinks they have it worked out but later discover they had it all wrong.

Look at the books on end times Bible prophecy written just 10 years ago. Most of them thought we would be in the Millennium by now.

[~candice~]

So... as a methodology for studying end times, is it best to find a position and assess the scriptural support for it.... or to read the Word and find your own position. The latter is much harder.

[OneLight]

So... as a methodology for studying end times, is it best to find a position and assess the scriptural support for it.... or to read the Word and find your own position. The latter is much harder.

There are so many different positions on Eschatology out there, I think reading scripture first is the best way to go and see what God shows you. If you first take a position, then you may find yourself trying to make scripture fit your assumed beliefs.

note: this is from someone who does not have a complete understanding , or preset belief.

[Guest shiloh357]

So... as a methodology for studying end times, is it best to find a position and assess the scriptural support for it.... or to read the Word and find your own position. The latter is much harder.

Well, it depends on what specific issue within Eschatology you are talking about. I don't really get into rapture debates because there is no way to be dogmatic on any one position. I have my own personal leanings of course, but I am open to being wrong.

God only gives us a general overview about the end times, but no hard and fast timeline. We will get more light when we walk in the light we have today. I am content to let God handle the future. Besides, He is already there and has prepared the path for us already.

[Guest man]

So... as a methodology for studying end times, is it best to find a position and assess the scriptural support for it.... or to read the Word and find your own position. The latter is much harder.

There are so many different positions on Eschatology out there, is think reading scripture first is the best way to go and see what God shows you. If you first take a position, then you may find yourself trying to make scripture fit your assumed beliefs.

note: this is from someone who does not have a complete understanding , or preset belief.

That is true. A good example is what took place here yesterday. Other examples can be found throughout the site.

The Word will reveal itself. If we take a position and then go and search for the support of that position, we could very easily overlook the obvious because it doesn't fit into the position we have chosen. I see it all the time.

[woodieiw]

andy. there are verse by verse bible studies by pastors on line you can listen to. You select the book and verse. that might help.

[Guest]

Andy knows me and the fact that I am firmly (at the moment - a moment 24 years long so far) post-trib. I will share my methodology for studying eschatology, even if you really wanted to know about eschautology, whatever that is. Now, being post-trib, this might appear to be a method to study eschatology from a post-trib viewpoint. Look at the method, not my conclusion, and see if this does not make sense as a sound approach.

Let me preface this by saying that I had no particular interest in eschatology to begin with. I was in a pre-trib church, listening to pre-trib people on radio like Chuck Smith, and I read a few of the books that were popular at the time like the Late Great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsay. At that time, I was not aware that there were really any people who had any other view than pre-trib.

I began to attend bible studies at Melodyland Christian Center in Anaheim, California, because it was near my home. The teacher there was a man named Walter Martin, who was famous for books like the Kingdom of the Cults, and his national radio program, the Bible Answerman.

I paid real attention in Walter's studies, he was very qualified, interesting, thorough and clearly devoted to our Lord. I hung on his every word. One day, he mentioned that he believed that the rapture would be subsequent to the great tribulation. I found this troubling. I appoached him and told him my experiences with the books, my pastor, radio programs etc. and asked why he believed what he did.

He told me that it was good to listen to all the sources that I mentioned, but there is only one source to trust - the Bible. If I wanted to understand these things, I would need to get my nose into the Bible and work.

At that point in my life, I was beginning to get very serious about bible study, so the challenge appealed to me. However, I did not know were to begin, or how to go about it. I kept thinking about Walters observation that only the Bible was trustworthy, and the more I thought about that, the more I realized that I did not want to consult others on the topic, if I wanted information that was not tainted by human predjudices.

I had not yet read the whole Bible, so I figured this was the time to start, since I did not know where to begin, I began in Genesis and went through to Revelation. I actually made it a point to try to avoid coming to conclusions while I read, but instead, read only to identify and catalog passages relating to eschatology. As I did, I wrote the verses down on pieces of paper and set them aside.

It took me a little over 8 months reading the bible everyday and jotting down these verses, but I did it without distraction from my purpose. Once I had a pile of papers, I read through the papers and identified events or concepts like Day of the Lord, Jesus returning, 1000 years, great tribulation, abomination of desolation, etc. I had to make duplicates of some things, because I wanted verses in there contexts, and some passages contained more that one idea. Realize that this was all done manually, no computer, a computer would make this much easier.

I looked for clues as to timing and sequences, and began to place the verses in chronological order, doing as best I could (and it is harder that you might think) not to use my understanding and presumptions to determine sequence, but only use sequencial information that was clearly indicated by scriptures themselves.

This activity looked like it would take more time than reading the Bible did. I would place some event where it seemed like it belonged, only to find some other verse would seem to make it less clear, if not contradict the placement I had assigned. However, it was only slow at first, and pieces began to fall into place more and more.

Now, I already told you that I thought it wise not to consider anyone authoritative on the Bible - it provides it's own commentary. With that principle in mind, one thing became clear, Matthew 24 is a really key chapter. Of all the passages in the Bible, it is clearly the one that has the most complete information on timing and sequences, and it is Jesus speaking, no better authority. In the passage, Jesus is answering a chronologial question from the apostles, and He gives them a chronological answer. Just count the chonological and sequence words in the passage such as "immediately after", "then", "at that time", etc. and you will see what I mean.

So, that was a key for me, a great starting place. Look at this authoritative, clear, and exhaustive passage, and use it the see how other things fit together, knowing that any attempt to place an event in order, which did not harmonize with Jesus words, was necessarily a wrong understanding. In the Matthew 24 passage, he refers to Daniel, so, I think it makes sense to do as He says, read Matthew and read Daniel, those things will enhance your understanding.

Now, clearly the nature of revelation, God revealing mysteries, not the book of Revelation, is a progressive process. God revealed more as time went on, so, although eschatology is found in Genesis, you could not develop a clear picture on eschatology from that book alone.

So, something else comes into play in my thinking, the New Testament has more concentrated details on eschatology, and the New Testament writers were Spirit indwelt men who had the benefit of of not only knowing the scriptures (old testament), but having been tutored by God Himself, face to face, explaining these things to them. In the case of John and Paul, and to some degree Peter perhaps, having revelations from God after His resurrection. Which means that they are in a position to explain things from the Old Testament, with a clarity that was not before available - such is the nature of progressive revelation. Therefore, we use the New Testament to guide our understanding of the Old Testament.

I have been carefull not to express an opinion on what things are indicated in a study or eschatology, nor have I commented on what can be known and what cannot be. However, I would like to say to those who like to say "We do not know" or "we cannot know for sure", that more is knowable than you might suspect, and until you really do the work and look for yourself, you do not know what you can or cannot know. Similarly, I would offer that those people who like to say they are "pan-trib", and that they don't care as long as it all pans out, are being in my mind disrespectful and lazy. One third of bible verses are predictive, with such a wealth of information, why would we want to presume that it doesn't matter. God put this stuff in there for a reason, I suspect the reason is that He actualloy wants us to be informed and prepared. Can you imagine being a Jew in Old Testament times, saying you are "pan-Messiah". There are more important things than Eschatology, but that does not mean it is unimportant.

O.K., that summarizes how I approached the topic Andy, but let me point out something else. It would seem that the method I used, though difficult, would reveal about everything that can be known. In theory, that might be the case, inpractice, it is not. After that year long process, I had a position. However, after almost a quarter century of studying Eschatology since then, I am still learning. From what I have learned about the study of Eschatology, I would make some suggestions:

Empty you head of opinions, wishes and guesses, and learn the discipline of staying focused, not going back and forth from one area of study to another.

Learn the rules of interpretation, and stick by them, they are your freinds, not to be tossed aside when they disagree with you. You are doing this to learn, not to reject what you learn.

Identify the things that are already in your personal understanding that are not clearly biblically indicated, for example, some people approach eschatology with a dispensationary framework. If you bring that understanding to the scriptures with you, you will read the scriptures through dispensational glasses, you want glasses that have no tint, nothing obscurring your vision.

When you find something that seems to indicate a contradiction of a posible position, make a note of it to research it further. Some times we misunderstand things which seem clear, only to discover that our understanding was flawed, perhaps because of some nuance of Greek, for example.

That is about all I can think of to suggest at the moment, except for the most obvious and most overlooked, before study, pray for clarity and supernaturally given understanding.

Oh, one more thing - never think of this as a chore, think of it as an adventure in understanding, with dicoveries to be made and you will be blessed.

Hope this helps Sis, and any others who might wonder about these things.

Post Script

Some may disagree with my contention that Matthew 24 is the most exhaustive passage. I agree with you. Let me clarify what I meant. The book of Revelation is almost all Eschatology, which easily entitles it to be considered exhaustive. However, Revelation has severe shortcomings as a place to begin a study of Eschatology. For one, it deals largely with a brief period of time (excluding the millenium) and does not have the sequential information of signs of the times etc. Begining there, is difficult, because the book is largely symbolic, therefore open to interpretation. Also, the information is not presented in chronological order, and the order of the events there, is debated, therefore we need to look elsewhare for understanding, and having done so, bring that understanding to Revelation. Therefore, Revelation is not a good candidate as a starting place for the study of Eschatology, which was my point about Matt 24.