Question to those who reason the things of God

[kross]

I've seen a lot of debates and discussions in my 7 years here. I've often wondered

[Rhonda Lou]

Fez brought up an interesting difference - that being whether one is discussing issues with believers, or non. Actually - I had other believers in mind when I posted this. But it could make a difference, I would think.

Tell me - do you mostly enter conversations where your viewpoint is already set in stone, or those that give you pause? In other words, are you mostly looking for answers or pushing forward ideas?

I'm analytical, and have studied things from all sides, even before starting on Worthy Boards. I know what I believe and why I believe it, though it is my constant prayer that I do not become so hardened in my beliefs that I am no longer "teachable". I have a huge desire to reach those who are unsaved since I believe time is running out, but I am not good at initiating conversations, so I get on Worthy Boards to add my two cents to what others say or ask. I have truly attempted to listen to exactly what it is they are asking, and try to respond accordingly. If there are verses that I already know, I don't look them up. If there is a question about a particular verse, I look up the context to try to respond to the exact question.

In the past, I have been drawn to questions of unbelievers because I have a heart for them. My heart may be there, but my expertise is not. I analyze myself and doubt everything -- I never feel like I've contributed anything, no "fruit" is born, but maybe a "seed" is planted for others to bear. I try to decide if I need to start with the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:2) or if I should start where they are (1 Corinthians 9:20=23). I get caught up in spreading knowledge, without love at times. It just gets to be very confusing. In the end, I decided to answer specific questions, disengage, and pray.

As for believers (Inner Court), I usually get involved in ares where I have information. But, I'm trying to "gel" and just fellowship from time to time, exert some personality, let people get to know me. One of my life's verses is 1 Corinthians 8:1 where it says that knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. I gravitate towards knowledge, so when it gets the better of me, I take breaks. Trouble is, I can't stay away, and I get excited and want to share what I've learned.

[traveller]

Trouble is, I can't stay away, and I get excited and want to share what I've learned.

May we never recover from our passion for our first love.

[Shaliach]

Good topic Trav...gets you thinking.

The sort of thread that really gets a rise in my heart is when we look at great teachings in Scripture and delve deeply into things that feed and nourish the spirit, and that continue to actively work in me as a person, demanding a response/change and not just intellectual assertion to spiritual truth or meaty teaching.

I don't mind controversy....I don't mind arguing.....I love good interaction....I like it when people get to the point, are slow to take offence and quick to forgive...I love it most when I see Jesus in us.

Then, my friend, you would most likely enjoy the weekly "Men of the Bima" meetings. Unlike on-line communities and postings, these need to take place in face to face meetings - around a table. Each week a different person is chosen to select a difficult Bible passage (or a controversial passage) for discussion. Each person is required to give their opinion concerning the selected passage and give a reason(s) for holding that opinion. As the discussion continues around the table (and across the table!) at any point a speaker can be challenged by the asking of the question, "Show me the scripture." This requires the speaker to find and read the scripture being used to support his position (if one exists) - and to give his interpretation of that scripture and why it supports his position. The speaker can also be challenged on that scripture and its interpretation, requiring yet another scriptural passage investigation. Even the "challenger" can be challenged in turn for a rebuttal. I think you can get the idea. It is a give and take - around the table - discussion with open Bibles in hand.

Not every meeting ends with in agreement, but, everyone leaves challenged - what do you believe and why, what do you actually know, why do you hold to one belief over another, etc.? Then comes the hard question: Can you still love your brother, support him, serve him, and live and work in harmony with him even if you have serious disagreements with him?

Keep in mind: If you cannot mount a creditable challenge to your own belief system, you are not prepared to adequately defend it.

Example, concerning the baptism reference of Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." What baptism is referenced to here and how is it to be understood and applied to one's life?

Answers:

I got baptized because without the water my sins are not forgiven.

I got baptized because it is a public declaration of an inter transformation.

I got baptized only because it is a biblical instruction.

I got baptized in response to having my sins forgiven.

I did not get baptized in water because the "one" and only baptism that I needed was the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I got baptized because it is the Hebrew religious/spiritual requirement for becoming a disciple (student, Talmid) of Rabbi Yeshua (Jesus).

etc.

Yes, discussions can become "heated", feelings can get stepped on, etc. Therefore, these meetings are usually reserved for only those elders who have demonstrated a high degree of spiritual maturity and knowledge of the word, who have shown themselves to be both an accomplished teacher as well as a serious student. Egos can be quickly bruised, therefore humility is the safer approach when confronting (of being confronted by) one's peers.

While this is an old Hebrew study method, you might find it interesting to try in your church. Just remember the maturity, knowledge, and the humility requirements! A little wisdom also goes along way in such a setting.

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*A Bima is the platform (or table) from which the Torah (Scroll of Instruction) is read. Men of the Bima are those asembly elders who study and teach the Tanakh (Bible).

Edited August 5, 2009 by Shaliach

[Botz]

Hello Shaliach....

Thanks for the information I appreciate what you have written.

I have been in various groups from time to time, where everyone gets the chance to digest and impart all the while looking through Scripture and trying to find the proper context of verses used, and their correct application not only in given passages, but what might be reasonably expected in us ...in other words what do we do with the revealed truths that we uncover....do we merely acknowledge and cosset them, or do we attempt to own them so that they become imbedded in our very beings....or as James would challenge....hearers and doers of the Word.

The most profitable times to me, have usually stemmed from times where Scripture is stripped back to the original Hebrew and to some extent Greek, and where we attempt to get so much more from familiar passages than we have ever been content with in the past....whether it is following a historical perspective of the Temple and the Priesthood, or looking at the Character of someone like Abraham, David or Paul.

I think for many it depends how content you are with what you know, and how curious you are about the things you don't know. Personally I have a need to delve, and a strong desire to know and understand more....because in doing so I am better equipped to understand the ways of the L-rd, and probably the fear of the L-rd too.

Naturally study and debate are just one aspect of growing in G-d, and as in all things there should be a balance the reflects a well-rounded relationship in all areas wherever possible or expedient...but it is also true to say that some people are more given to worship or prayer than study and learning. I guess you have your specialists and your all rounders, but the aim is for one full man in Messiah.

[EricH]

I always want to understand how those with whom I am not in agreement think.

[traveller]

Botz

I think for many it depends how content you are with what you know, and how curious you are about the things you don't know. Personally I have a need to delve, and a strong desire to know and understand more....because in doing so I am better equipped to understand the ways of the L-rd, and probably the fear of the L-rd too.

Which is why I came here to this board to begin with. I was looking for answers for something I truly did not understand. I seached it out here, but found more questions. Searched those out, found even more questions. I have found answers to some of those questions somewhere along the way, but not all by any means.

Discussions can be nourishment for me, if the exchange is honest and searching on all sides. Even those that get unruly can produce great understandings - the kind you know in your knower.

The ones that produce no satisfaction for me are the baseless, push for shove that clearly are for boasting rights only. If the Lord is left out of the discussion then it is pointless.

[traveller]

I always want to understand how those with whom I am not in agreement think.

Does this help you in strengthening your own beliefs, or does it assist you in approaching them?

Have you come to better understanding with any of them since being on this board?

[Botz]

Botz

I think for many it depends how content you are with what you know, and how curious you are about the things you don't know. Personally I have a need to delve, and a strong desire to know and understand more....because in doing so I am better equipped to understand the ways of the L-rd, and probably the fear of the L-rd too.

Which is why I came here to this board to begin with. I was looking for answers for something I truly did not understand. I searched it out here, but found more questions. Searched those out, found even more questions. I have found answers to some of those questions somewhere along the way, but not all by any means.

I think people come to these boards for all sorts of reasons....not least because G-d somehow draws them.

I also think that when they/we get here, there can be some surprises and challenges that they/we did not expect, and a degree of fellowship and friendship that can prove both important and stablising at different periods in peoples lives....especially with those that struggle in relationships or are not confident in their understanding of the ways of the L-rd.

Discussions can be nourishment for me, if the exchange is honest and searching on all sides. Even those that get unruly can produce great understandings - the kind you know in your knower.

The ones that produce no satisfaction for me are the baseless, push for shove that clearly are for boasting rights only. If the Lord is left out of the discussion then it is pointless.

Amen Trav....one of the most profound things I learnt here was from someone who took exception to the way I expressed myself and was basically argumentative, onnery and cantakerous.

I agree it is totally pointless and unedifying to enter into debate and argument when all that is at stake is ones own ego...sometimes I have seen people so intent on proving their point, that even if they are right (and I have seen this constantly) the way they go about demonstrating their point completely detracts from the truths discussed... It is right to earnestly contend for the faith...but in particular we as Believers here should strive for unity amongst ourselves...content to strongly disagree on some issues, but always prepared to build each other up and prefer others over ourselves.

[Shaliach]

Which is why I came here to this board to begin with. I was looking for answers for something I truly did not understand. I seached it out here, but found more questions. Searched those out, found even more questions. I have found answers to some of those questions somewhere along the way, but not all by any means.

Here is a truism that is very simple to grasp but difficult to consistently employ:

There are no stand-alone verses in the Bible, they are all part of, and make up the integrated whole as they reveal the mind of God. Consequently, there are no stand-alone biblical doctrines, as they must all support (are dependent upon) one another (no conflicts, contradictions, etc.). Where a scripture appears to be in conflict with another scripture (paradox), then there is something concerning those scriptures that we do not understand. If doctrines are in conflict, we have a false doctrine (a teaching that contains one or more errors). Remember, there is "no shadow" in God.

Also keep in mind that we are given to understand even the "deep things of God" - but we are not yet given to understand "everything" concerning God! We must learn, and be content with, knowing the difference.