Romans 9

[kross]

I have been in many discussions on Romans chapter 9 with those who are very capable of finding a meaning in these phrases that is completely different than what I read. Many very learned men have been able to change the meanings or the focus of Paul's writings to get away from what is a doctrine many do not want to believe. With phrases like:

"For the children, not yet born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand..."

"Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated"

"I will have mercy on who I will have mercy..."

"Therefore HE has mercy on whom HE wills, and whom HE wills HE hardens."

All of which lead to:

"What if GOD wanting to show HIS wrath and to make HIS power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath prepard for destruction,

and that HE might make known the riches of HIS glory on the vessels of mercy, which HE had prepared beforehand for glory,

even us whom HE called.." (taking note that Paul had already explained that those HE called were predestined by GOD and that is why HE called them. Romans 8:29)

Paul clearly is teaching a doctrin of predestination and the work of a soveriegn LORD in determining the destination of individuals. From hardening Pharoah's heart to choosing who will have HIS favor even before they leave the womb.

Still, with these verses and the ones from 1 Chorinthians that establish who GOD calls, " Not many wise according to the flesh... and Epehesians, "Just as HE chose us in HIM before the foundations of the Earth..." The doctrine is still put aside.

Yet, there is (IMO) a lingering question that seems to be a perfect proof of what Paul is teaching. Why would Paul make this statement;

"You will say to me then, 'why does HE still find fault? For who has resisted HIS will?"

How is it that Paul, making this comment, asking and answerring this question, can not be understood to be teaching the very doctrin that says GOD's will is done? IF Paul was not teaching a very specific point that GOD chooses whom HE will have mercy on and HE chooses to harden hearts, based on the predestination Paul spoke of in Romans 8:28-39, why would Paul assume that people would ask this specific question from what he is teaching?

And that is the question. How is it that Paul would anticipate people asking this question to refute his teaching if this is not what he is teaching?

Thoughts?

[BlindSeeker]

Ro 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but

Esau have I hated

.

Roman

[Guest shiloh357]

Romans 9, 10 and 11 pertain to God's posture toward Israel. Romans 1-8 pertains to the salvation of the Jew and Gentle. In chapter 9, Paul changes gears and broadens the focus to corporate Israel and the Church.

Romans 9 is not about salvation. The "choosing" pertains to service, and God using whom He will for the purposes He Wills. That is why he uses the anaology of vessels. We are God's vessels in His service and some of us are made for more noble purposes and others of us serve a more mundane purpose, and that is solely God's perogative. The potter can choose to make a vessel for show such as an expensive vase, or he can take the same lump of clay and make it into a cereal bowl. It is his perogative and the clay has no say in the matter.

The object Paul has in view in chapter 9 pertains to God's using Israel by causing a partial blindness or hardness of heart to come upon them in order to make salvation available to the Gentiles. Paul is defending God's right to do so, and that there is no injustice on God's part toward Israel in using them as He did in order to bring about his purpose.

[other one]

He hardened PHaro's heart, but are you really sure that He will send him to the fires of Hell?

A lot of bad stuff happens on this planet that may or may not put a person in the fire at the last day....

If you believe in a God that would make something and force it into becoming something that would be damned to eternal punishment when they did not have the free will to not do such, you believe in a God that I don't see in the new testament.

1 Tim 2:1-7

2:1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, in order that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time. 7 And for this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

NASB

If Gods will be done, everyone will be saved in the end.

[Guest shiloh357]

He hardened PHaro's heart, but are you really sure that He will send him to the fires of Hell?

A lot of bad stuff happens on this planet that may or may not put a person in the fire at the last day....

If you believe in a God that would make something and force it into becoming something that would be damned to eternal punishment when they did not have the free will to not do such, you believe in a God that I don't see in the new testament.

1 Tim 2:1-7

2:1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, in order that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time. 7 And for this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

NASB

If Gods will be done, everyone will be saved in the end.

What you are proposing sounds like the doctrine of Universalism, the belief that all people will be saved and that is something the Bible squarely teaches against.

[kross]

I'm sorry. The actual purpose of the OP is to answer the simple question at the bottom of the post.

[Guest shiloh357]

I'm sorry. The actual purpose of the OP is to answer the simple question at the bottom of the post.

How is it that Paul would anticipate people asking this question to refute his teaching if this is not what he is teaching?

What Paul was anticipating was the accusation that God was unjust to use Israel as He did. As stated earlier, the object Paul has in view has changed in Chapter 9. He is defending the Sovereignty of God against those who bring a charge against for hardening Israel in order to bring the Gentiles into the Kingdom.

[kross]

I'm sorry. The actual purpose of the OP is to answer the simple question at the bottom of the post.

How is it that Paul would anticipate people asking this question to refute his teaching if this is not what he is teaching?

What Paul was anticipating was the accusation that God was unjust to use Israel as He did. As stated earlier, the object Paul has in view has changed in Chapter 9. He is defending the Sovereignty of God against those who bring a charge against for hardening Israel in order to bring the Gentiles into the Kingdom.

It is interesting how Paul, in chapter 8 is speaking of foreknowing and predestination as a way of establishing "The Called" as having been predestined. He then speaks of GOD sovereign choosing and ends verse 9:23-24 with "even us whom HE called..." and yet some say that the first half has nothing to do with that.

again, I know those points. I have heard them many times. Yet, when I read these and other verses, I do not see Paul writing as if these points are not relevent to those who will read these letters. Most of his statements are written in present or perfect tense, "Why does HE still find fault" instead of "Why did HE still find fault"

"But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against GOD? Should the thing formed say to the HIM who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?" is not a comment about a group or nation. It is a statement about individuals being formed by GOD. It is not a look into the past or how Israel was treated by GOD, it is a look at how each person is exactly what GOD makes them to be. How HE formed them and the purpose for them being as they are. One for honor, one for dishonor, as the LORD chooses.

I just can not see how that is kicked back to something other than Paul teaching that GOD forms each person from the same lump of clay to fulfill HIS purpose, whether to be a person spoken of in verse 22 or one of The Called in verse 23-24.

Thank you for your imput, though. I have found your comments to be well thought out and studied and I am confident you and I will likely not come to agreement on these verses, outside a major movement of GOD's spirit.

Peace

[Guest shiloh357]

It is interesting how Paul, in chapter 8 is speaking of foreknowing and predestination as a way of establishing "The Called" as having been predestined. He then speaks of GOD sovereign choosing and ends verse 9:23-24 with "even us whom HE called..." and yet some say that the first half has nothing to do with that.

You are ignoring the change in focus and context. Paul begins chapter nine with an entirely different line of thought. IN fact, chapters 9,10and 11 are the focal point of the letter. Chapters 1-8 is explaining how Gentile salvation was even possible (seeing that it was mystery back then). Paul's focus in the first 8 chapters centers around the Jew and Gentile and how they are both sinners in God's eyes. He shows that being Jewish offers no advantage and being Gentile puts no one at a disadvantage where God's grace is concerned. Chapter 9 is a new focus and a new line of thought. He is now dealing with Israel until the end of chapter 11

again, I know those points. I have heard them many times. Yet, when I read these and other verses, I do not see Paul writing as if these points are not relevent to those who will read these letters. Most of his statements are written in present or perfect tense, "Why does HE still find fault" instead of "Why did HE still find fault"

"But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against GOD? Should the thing formed say to the HIM who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?" is not a comment about a group or nation. It is a statement about individuals being formed by GOD. It is not a look into the past or how Israel was treated by GOD, it is a look at how each person is exactly what GOD makes them to be. How HE formed them and the purpose for them being as they are. One for honor, one for dishonor, as the LORD chooses.

Sorry, but it is about Israel. The application is not limited to Israel and certainly applies to all men, but the focus and context pertains to Israel. His generic use of "man" does not change that.

I just can not see how that is kicked back to something other than Paul teaching that GOD forms each person from the same lump of clay to fulfill HIS purpose, whether to be a person spoken of in verse 22 or one of The Called in verse 23-24.

The problem is that you are ignoring the fact that Paul is talking about purpose in terms of service, not salvation. Paul is not saying that God takes some people and forms them to be saved and forms others for damnation. To assert Paul is saying that has no hermeneutic or textual crediblity. That is something you have to force into the text, in violation of the intent of the author.

[kross]

Ro 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but

Esau have I hated

.

Roman