WN: Lutherans to Vote on Sexually Active Gay Clergy - Washington Post

[Guest LadyC]

LOL i understand.... it is quite an active thread and goes by quickly! the post i was wanting you to read was actually the one right above that... here, i'll repost it to make it easier...

andy, i was clear on the fact that you believe it to be sin. i probably should have made what i was saying more clear, but i was in a hurry to get dinner out of the oven.

when we become a new person in Christ, we put aside the old. yes, a person is still, in most cases, going to have temptation to fall back into sinful patters, whether it's sexual sin (homo- or hetero-) or drugs or alcohol or cussing or whatever. but once we accept Christ, putting aside our old self means we stop defining ourselves by our temptation. we should no longer label ourselves as "gay" or "slutty" or "addicted", we should label ourselves a new creature in Christ. that's the first step in taking our thoughts captive to Christ! if we continue to identify with our old nature, we're setting ourselves up for failure.

[~candice~]

...

when we become a new person in Christ, we put aside the old. yes, a person is still, in most cases, going to have temptation to fall back into sinful patters, whether it's sexual sin (homo- or hetero-) or drugs or alcohol or cussing or whatever. but once we accept Christ, putting aside our old self means we stop defining ourselves by our temptation. we should no longer label ourselves as "gay" or "slutty" or "addicted", we should label ourselves a new creature in Christ. that's the first step in taking our thoughts captive to Christ! if we continue to identify with our old nature, we're setting ourselves up for failure.

Completely agree.

[PhoenixJLD]

Aren't they essentially living asexual lives? Why do they have to be 'straight'?

I am thinking a lot of the confusion is coming from how our culture has determined to label "sexual orientation."

God made mankind "male and female" and designed the man to be joined (physically and spiritually) with his wife (a woman).

This is not "strait" nor "heterosexual." This is God's design - our design - how we are created to be.

Man-to-man or woman-to-woman sexual attraction is outside of God's design for us. Men are not designed to be joined to men and women are not designed to be joined to women.

Just as sex outside of marriage is a corruption of God's design, so is man-to-man "joining" and woman-to-woman "joining" (I say that because sex is more than physical stimulation).

What also needs to be considered is that the Lord actually calls this deed "an abomination." Now if the Lord speaks harshly thus against this "behavior", is it wise for us to dance around the issue?

Make sense?

Paul says it's good for a man not to marry. Therefore, we could say an asexual lifestyle is also God's design - for those who choose it, and it isn't easy. So if someone has a homosexual orientation but decides to live asexually, why should they have to "become straight" in order to serve?

[tah]

LOL i understand.... it is quite an active thread and goes by quickly! the post i was wanting you to read was actually the one right above that... here, i'll repost it to make it easier...

andy, i was clear on the fact that you believe it to be sin. i probably should have made what i was saying more clear, but i was in a hurry to get dinner out of the oven.

when we become a new person in Christ, we put aside the old. yes, a person is still, in most cases, going to have temptation to fall back into sinful patters, whether it's sexual sin (homo- or hetero-) or drugs or alcohol or cussing or whatever. but once we accept Christ, putting aside our old self means we stop defining ourselves by our temptation. we should no longer label ourselves as "gay" or "slutty" or "addicted", we should label ourselves a new creature in Christ. that's the first step in taking our thoughts captive to Christ! if we continue to identify with our old nature, we're setting ourselves up for failure.

Amen Amen Amen....

[OneLight]

I am going to step out on a limb here because it is Gods calling and His word we are talking about.

God did not make man or women to be homosexuals, He gave them up because they turned away from Him in the first place.

Romans 1:18-32

God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Upon salvation, we are a new creation in Him, where we no longer live for ourselves, but for God. We are to reconcile ourselves to Him and no longer consider ourselves our own, but His.

2 Corinthians 5:12-20 (New King James Version)

Be Reconciled to God

For we do not commend ourselves again to you, but give you opportunity to boast on our behalf, that you may have an answer for those who boast in appearance and not in heart. For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you. For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.

1 Corinthians 6:12-20 (New King James Version)

Glorify God in Body and Spirit

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

If someone is plagued with desires, they need to bring it to the cross and stay there until it is finished. Fasting and prayer is a way to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, to let the oppressed go free, and that you break every yoke!

Isaiah 58:5-9 (New King James Version)

Is it a fast that I have chosen,

A day for a man to afflict his soul?

Is it to bow down his head like a bulrush,

And to spread out sackcloth and ashes?

Would you call this a fast,

And an acceptable day to the LORD?

Is this not the fast that I have chosen:

To loose the bonds of wickedness,

To undo the heavy burdens,

To let the oppressed go free,

And that you break every yoke?

Is it not to share your bread with the hungry,

And that you bring to your house the poor who are cast out;

When you see the naked, that you cover him,

And not hide yourself from your own flesh?

Then your light shall break forth like the morning,

Your healing shall spring forth speedily,

And your righteousness shall go before you;

The glory of the LORD shall be your rear guard.

Then you shall call, and the LORD will answer;

You shall cry, and He will say, ‘Here I am.’

If one has a heart for God, they will remain steadfast and continue to seek His will in their life and not just chalk it up to "being made this way." In order to oversee a church, one needs to fulfill the following requirements.

1 Timothy 3

Qualifications of Overseers

This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

AND

Titus 1:5-16 (New King James Version)

Qualified Elders

For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you— if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination. For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.

The Elders’ Task

For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

The problem with this world is that we have stepped away from the word of God all in the name of love. Not Gods love, but mans love. It is time to set His word back where it belongs, even if it does hurt someones pride.

A gay person has no more right to run a church then a drug addict, a thief, a prostitute, an adulterer, or a murderer. The list is even longer then what I brought as an example. If this sets wrong with anyone, I suggest they take it up with God, for it is all scriptural. Once God has set them free from their old self, and know that they are called by God to serve, they should obey. Until then, no.

[BlindSeeker]

But those who no longer struggle with lust or temptation, who don't defend their orientation, who believe and teach on the issue according to the Word, who have hope and faith in Christ for their evental complete sanctification, who live their lives free of this hinderance... what more can be asked of them?

To sit in a pew and not stand behind a pulpit.

Those who serve must have a good report . . .

Ac 22:12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report . . .

1Ti 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

The church is not a place of equal rights for all, whosever wants to be a whatever . . . do not confuse humanist PCism with God's Holy Church.

Look at the qualifications Paul puts forth for a widow to receive the care of the Church-

1Ti 5:3 Honour widows that are widows indeed.

4 But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.

5 Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate,

trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.

6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

7 And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.

8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old,

having been the wife of one man

,

10

Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

Yet today's psuedo-church would literally throw Paul's words out the window as unacceptable and uncharitable . . . yet there is it in the word of God.

Can a gay individual come to Christ? Absolutely.

Can a gay individual serve Christ? Absolutely

Can a gay individual (active or inactive) and lead the Church? Absolutely not.

What part of perfecting holiness in the fear of God doesn't the Church understand anymore?

[Guest shiloh357]

~andy~'

The issue of pedophiles serving in youth group is different because that is intentionally placing them in temptation which is sinful and illegal and dangerous.

The aspect with this is: gay men are attracted to men period - serving in Church involves contact with other men on an ongoing basis - if a gay man is struggling with issues concerning attraction to men - this needs to be resolved BEFORE serving.

I cannot stress this enough.

I have been agreeing with you that anyone who struggles with lust needs to have this issue addressed before serving in ministry.

Straight males are attracted to women but somehow find a way to keep those temptations and lusts under control while in the ministry, and I think that gay male can too. If it is a problem, then of course, they should not serve.

Are you suggesting they should have to turn straight before they can serve?

I am not speaking for HG, but yes, they should be straight first before serving. It would be no different if they were struggling with porn. There needs to be a lengthy time of proving one has been delievered fully of any delibitating sin before serving in ministry. This is not about behavorial reform. There needs to be observable proof of a full and final deliverance from the bondage of sin particularly if you are talking about homosexuality, porn, adultery, or whatever, and that can take years.

I just don't understand why. If they are not struggling with lust, or acting on their feelings, nor defending their feelings, then haven't they overcome? Aren't they essentially living asexual lives? Why do they have to be 'straight'? Like I said in my first few posts, these people have amazing testimonies about the power of God to help them resist sin and live for Him despite feelings.

Should a pedofile be allowed to serve as minister as long as he doesn't actively seek out little children? Would you be comfortable knowing that your pastor had a thing for your child?

There is a difference between heterosexual desire and homosexual desire. Heterosexual desire is from God. It is not a sin to be attracted to the opposite sex. God hardwired you that way. Just as with any desire God created, there are boundaries that cannot be crossed. There is a way a person can live with sexual desire in purity and holiness.

However, homosexual desire is a sin from the get-go. It does not matter if a person is "subduing" such desires or not. Such desires are a perversion of God's creation, and need to be removed entirely. You cannot claim that as long as he doesn't act on them it's okay. Because, the Bible teaches that sin begins within us long before it is committed in the flesh. According to the Bible, not only should we not commit such sins, but there should not be anything in the heart to prompt it in the first place. That is why Jesus taught that lust for a married person amounts to adultery even though you did not actually carry it out in the flesh.

Hetrosexual desire can be sanctified but homosexual desire cannot be sanctified and thus no one who still maintains that orientation, whether they struggle with it or not, is really fit to be in the ministry.

The ministry is not a "job." It is a calling and God does not call gay people to the ministry.

[BlindSeeker]

Homosexuality is no more wrong than envy or dishonesty. You'd be looking a long time before finding someone to serve in the ministry who wasn't tempted by some form of sin.

This statement is only as true to the point that the wages of all sin is death.

However, some sins are more of an abomination and offense to God's and His holiness than others to the point of disqualifying one from leadership.

[BlindSeeker]

Should a pedofile be allowed to serve as minister as long as he doesn't actively seek out little children? Would you be comfortable knowing that your pastor had a thing for your child?

There is a difference between heterosexual desire and homosexual desire. Heterosexual desire is from God. It is not a sin to be attracted to the opposite sex. God hardwired you that way. Just as with any desire God created, there are boundaries that cannot be crossed. There is a way a person can live with sexual desire in purity and holiness.

However, homosexual desire is a sin from the get-go. It does not matter if a person is "subduing" such desires or not. Such desires are a perversion of God's creation, and need to be removed entirely. You cannot claim that as long as he doesn't act on them it's okay. Because, the Bible teaches that sin begins within us long before it is committed in the flesh. According to the Bible, not only should we not commit such sins, but there should not be anything in the heart to prompt it in the first place. That is why Jesus taught that lust for a married person amounts to adultery even though you did not actually carry it out in the flesh.

Hetrosexual desire can be sanctified but homosexual desire cannot be sanctified and thus no one who still maintains that orientation, whether they struggle with it or not, is really fit to be in the ministry.

The ministry is not a "job." It is a calling and God does not call gay people to the ministry.

Amen Brother Shiloh.

Amen to every word.

[~candice~]

*takes a really deep breath*

Paul says it's good for a man not to marry. Therefore, we could say an asexual lifestyle is also God's design - for those who choose it, and it isn't easy. So if someone has a homosexual orientation but decides to live asexually, why should they have to "become straight" in order to serve?

I guess this is what I meant, and this is the kind of person that I don't have a problem with. I see no reason why this person cannot enter ministry...

I am going to step out on a limb here because it is Gods calling and His word we are talking about.

God did not make man or women to be homosexuals, He gave them up because they turned away from Him in the first place.

Romans 1:18-32

...

Upon salvation, we are a new creation in Him, where we no longer live for ourselves, but for God. We are to reconcile ourselves to Him and no longer consider ourselves our own, but His.

...

1 Corinthians 6:12-20 (New King James Version)

...

If someone is plagued with desires, they need to bring it to the cross and stay there until it is finished. Fasting and prayer is a way to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, to let the oppressed go free, and that you break every yoke!

Isaiah 58:5-9 (New King James Version)

...

If one has a heart for God, they will remain steadfast and continue to seek His will in their life and not just chalk it up to "being made this way." In order to oversee a church, one needs to fulfill the following requirements.

1 Timothy 3

Qualifications of Overseers

This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

AND

Titus 1:5-16 (New King James Version)

Qualified Elders

For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you