Bible - Can we trust it?

[BigJer]

<Sniff> I feel left out <sniff> He didn't reply to my post. <sniff> I feel left out.

[truseek]

I would also like to point out, KB, that Is lam accepts Christ as only a prophet. Yet Christ claimed to be the son of God (Matthew 16:16,17; John 8:58; 10:30). How can He be a prophet and a blasphemous liar at the same time?

If you would like, I will start a thread regarding the terrible error in Islam. Just some examples:

"Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of God; whether he dies or triumphs, We shall richly reward him. ... The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight then against the friends of Satan ..." (4:74,76)

"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. ... lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way ..." (9:5)

But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. (Matthew 5:44-45)

When Mohammed first started screaming from the rooftops that he alone had the divine word of God, the people of Mecca ignored him. However, when he started insulting and defaming the religion of the peace loving Meccans, they couldn't take it anymore and tried persuading him to stop. Mohammed the coward was too scared of the growing hostility against him and instead of calling upon his Allah to strike down the Meccans, he crept out one night and fled for his life.

Ever since that incident, Mohammed was determined to take revenge on the Meccans. He escaped to Medinah, which had a sizeable Jewish population, and started plotting his revenge with a small gang of criminals. This was the beginning of Mohammed's trail of violence, hatred and bloodshed that would soon destroy the once flourishing culture of Arabia. The story has been documented in detail by his biographers, - surprise raids on trade caravans and tribal settlements, the use of plunder thus obtained for recruiting an ever growing army of greedy desperados, assassinations of opponents, blackmail, expulsion and massacre of the Jews of Medinah, attack and enslavement of the Jews of Khayber, rape of women and children, sale of these victims after rape, trickery, treachery and bribery employed to their fullest extent to grow the numbers of his religion Islam which ironically was supposed to mean "Peace"! He organised no less than 86 expeditions, 26 of which he led himself.

The motives of the converts to Islam was never in any doubt. As D.S. Margoliouth states in his book Muhammad and the rise of Islam

"Of any moralising or demoralising effect that Muhammad's teaching had upon his followers we cannot say with precision. When he was at the head of the Robber community, it is probable that the demoralising influence began to be felt; it was then that men who had never broken an oath learnt that they might evade their obligations, and that men to whom the blood of their clan had been as their own, began to shed it with impunity in the "cause of god". And that lying and treachery in the cause of Islam received divine approval. It was then too that Moslems became distinguished by the obscenity of their language. It was then too, that the coveting of goods and wives possessed by Non-muslims was avowed without discouragement from the Prophet...."

Evidence for Mohammed not promoting peace:

1) Massacre of unarmed merchants during sacred month

Date: Late January(Rejeb), 623 A.D.

Place: Nakhla

Victims: 4 Merchants from Quraysh tribe of Mecca, the Tribe to which Mohammed himself belonged

Four UNARMED merchants were travelling to Mecca to sell their goods consisting of raisins, honey and animal skins. It was the holy month of Rejeb which was considered sacred for trade in Arabia. It was a point of honor that any form of warfare or violence was strictly forbidden in this month. Mohammed's gang attacked the helpless men from behind and stabbed two of them to death. They plundered all the goods as booty and Mohammed got one fifths of the share.

This shows the utter lack of morals or scruples on Mohammed's part. The Prophet of Islam did not possess a shred of pity or kindness, or the slightest sense of justice. He cold-bloodedly murdered two innocent people who had never done him any harm and did not even know him! All this was done in a month that the Prophet himself declared was a sacred month in which no warfare should take place. Mohammed was obviously motivated by nothing but hatred and greed.

Conveniently divine revelations came down from Allah that absolved him of all the guilt.

Koran 2:216

"Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, you knew not."

Here Mohammed is completely removing all blame from himself, for having started the fighting. The most insidious and devilish implication of this verse is that Allah is completely justifying Mohammed's murder of the innocent Meccans. Over and above this Mohammed is conveniently implying that warfare is hateful to him, but he participated in it because it was ordained by Allah! What sacrifices the "Apostle of Peace" had to make!

Koran 2:217

"They question you (O Mohammed) with regard to warfare in the sacred month. Say: Warfare therein is a great transgression but to turn men from the way of Allah and to disbelive in Him and the inviolable place of worship and to expel its people thence is a greater transgression, for persecution is worse than killing"

Here Allah is clearly saying that to kill or create warfare in the sacred month of Rejeb is a very grave offence, but to justify his own violation of Allah's rules, Mohammed comes up with the idea that since the people killed were unbelievers, it was perfectly okay! The reason given for the horrific murder of the innocent Meccans, is the fact that they did not believe in Mohammed's version of God. How much more tolerant and kind could the "Great Prophet" be!

2) Slaughter of Meccans who came to defend their caravans

Date: March (Ramadan) 17, 623 A.D

Place: The well of Badr

Victims: 70 merchants from Quraysh Tribe of Mecca, The Quraysh army which came to defend them

The merchandise being carried by this caravan was worth more than 50,000 Gold Dinars. Mohammed ganged up all the criminals of Medina and set out to raid the caravan with 300 men. The Meccans got word of the raid and sent out an army to protect the caravan. Throughout the entire battle Mohammad cowered in a hut which his men made for him. There he cried and prayed with feverish anxiety. At one point he came out of the hut and threw pebbles in the enemy's direction, screaming "Let evil look on your faces!" and "By him who holds my soul in his hands, anyone who fights for me today will go to paradise!" The Muslims killed over two hundred and took seventy prisoners. All seventy of the prisoners were ransomed, and any prisoner who did not fetch a ransom had his head chopped off.

Mohammed was gratified at the sight of his murdered victims. After the battle, he sent his followers to look for the corpse of Abu Jahal, one of the Meccans who had criticised him openly. When his corpse was found,they cut off the head and threw it down at Mohammed's feet. The "Apostle of peace" cried out in delirious joy, "Rejoice! Here lies the head of the enemy of Allah! Praise Allah, for there is no other but he!" The Prophet then ordered a great pit to be dug for the bodies of the innocents to be dumped. The Muslims then proceeded to hack the corpses limbs into pieces. As the bloodied mass of bodies was being thrown into the pit, a feverishly excited Mohammed shreiked, " O People of the Pit, have you found that what Allah threatened is true now? For I have found that what my Lord promised was true! Rejoice All Muslims!" One of the prisoners taken was the defiant Al Nadr Ibn al Harith, who had earlier taken Muhammad's challenge of telling better stories than him. Muhammad ordered Ali to strike off Nadr's head in his presence, so he could watch and exult in the pleasure of beheading the man who had insulted him. Another prisoner Uqba ibn Abi Muait was decapitated in front of the Prophet. Before being killed the prisoner cried out pitifully "O Prophet, who will look after my children if I should die?" The "Great Prophet of the Religion of Peace" coldly spat out "Hellfire", as the blade came down and spattered his clothes with Uqba's blood.

This time Mohammed needed a revelation that would not only absolve him of all the guilt for murdering so many innocent people, but also give him the "divine" right to get a huge share of the plundered booty. Quite a few revelations magically appeared after the battle of Badr.

Koran 8:65

"O Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you 20 steadfast,they will overcome 200 and if there be of you a 100, they shall overcome a 1000, because the disbelievers are a folk without intelligence"

This Sura clearly exposes Islam to be a religion that not only encourages violence but actually makes it a sacred duty for Muslims to kill anyone who does not believe in the Muslim version of religion. Not only is the "All forgiving Allah" exhorting his followers to kill anyone who is not Muslim, but he is also saying that all non-Muslims are so stupid that they will be unable to defend themselves and therfore deserve death!

Koran 8:67-68

"It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. You desire the lure of this world and Allah desires for you the hereafter and Allah is Mighty, Wise.. Now enjoy what you have won as lawful and good and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful."

This verse is in reference to the prisoners that Mohammed held for ransom after the battle. Allah the "Merciful" is saying that they should all have been killed! In addition, Allah is conveniently commenting that whatever loot Mohammed has plundered is "lawful and good" because it was done in service to Allah. So murder, rape, plunder and destruction are all perfectly fine with Allah as long as they are done in the name of Islam! Mohammed is also insidiously making himself seem very kind for having spared the lives of the prisoners, when in fact he only let them live so he could get more money from the Ransom for them. In today's world this is called "Terrorism" of the worst kind.

3) Assasination of poets who criticised Mohammed's murderous ways

Date: Late March-April, 623 A.D

Place: Medinah

Victims: Two of the most famous poets of Medinah, who had the courage to criticise the murderous actions of Mohammed and his gang

After the battle of Badr, the people of Medinah were horrified that they had given refuge to such a blatant criminal and his followers in their city. Many began protesting the presence of such violent and murderous people in their city. In a free society like Pre-Islamic Arabia, the poets acted as society's conscience and were free to criticise, satirize and examine the actions of people. The two most famous poets of this kind were Abu 'Afak; an extremely old and respected poet and Asma bint Marwan; a young mother with the gift of superb verse.

Muhammad was enraged at their criticism. When he heard the verses composed by Asma Bint Marwan he was infuriated and screamed aloud, "Will no one rid me of this daughter of Marwan!" That very night a gang of Muslims set out to do the dirty deed. They broke into the poets' house. She was lying in in her bedroom suckling her newborn child, while her other small children slept nearby. The Muslims tore the newborn infant off her breast and hacked it to pieces before her very eyes. They then made her watch the murder of all four of her children, before raping and then stabbing her repeatedly to death. After the murder when the Muslims went to inform the Prophet, he said "You have done a service to Allah and his Messenger, her life was not worth even two goats!"

A month later the distinguished and highly respected Abu Afak, who was over a hundred years old and reknowned for his sense of fairness, was killed brutally in the same manner as he slept. Once again the Prophet had commented that morning "Who will avenge me on this scoundrel!"

This shows us exactly how much the tolerant and peace loving Prophet respected life. Muslims claim that Mohammed was extremely gentle and loved children. Indeed the horrifying way he had Asma Bint Marwan's five infants slaughtered certainly attests to this "loving" side of the Prophet.

4) The Siege of the Banu Qaynuqa

Date: April, 623 A.D

Place: Medinah

Victims: The Jewish Tribe of Banu Qaynuqa

In order to get full control of Medinah, Mohammed needed to get rid of all his opponents. The strongest of these opponents was Abdallah Ibn Ubayy, a powerful chief who was allied with the Jewish Tribe of Banu Qaynuqa. This tribe was also the weakest, because they were made up of craftsmen, in particular goldsmiths. By attacking them, Mohammed knew he could plunder a huge amount of wealth and weaken Ibn Ubayy. Mohammed needed an excuse to attack them so he made a girl married to one of his followers, pretend that she had been teased by the Jews. The Muslims blockaded the fort of the Banu Qaynuqa for fifteen days until the starving Jews surrendered. Immediately, the Prophet was ready to kill them all, but Ibn Ubayy seized hold of Mohammed and protested. Mohammed's face became black with rage as he shouted "Let go of me", but Ibn Ubayy was adamant and shouted back "No, by God, I will not let you go until you deal kindly with my allies. 400 men without armour and 300 with, who have always supported me against enemies. And you want to slay them all in one morning! By God, If I were in your place I would fear a reversal of fortune"

At this threat, the cowardly Mohammed turned pale, as he realised that all the people of Medinah were against him. He hit Ibn Ubayy on the face and ordered that the Jews be kicked out of their own homes. All their property was seized and looted, many of the prettiest women were taken as prisoners to become sex-slaves. Mohammed kept one-fifths of the enormous booty for himself. This is the way he repayed the kindness of the Jews of Medina, who had given him shelter and a refuge, when Mohammed had run away from Mecca in fear.

The revelations in the Eighth Sura of the Koran were clearly in reference to the Banu Qaynuqa and anyone who opposed the Muslims.

(Koran 8:55-57)

"Lo, the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will not believe."

"Those of them with whom you made a treaty and then at every opportunity they break their treaty and they keep not duty to Allah, If you come on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, so that they may remember."

Here Mohammed's acts of planned terrorism against the Jewish Tribe is justified by Allah, because according to the "Merciful" Allah, Non-Muslims are the worst of BEASTS! So it is perfectly all right to murder, rape, torture and pillage the non-believers! Not only that but Allah is advising Mohammed and the Muslims that when anyone protests against the injustices committed by Muslims, the Muslims should make sure and deal with them with such violence, that it will strike fear among anyone who may think of supporting dissent. This proves that the Koran is nothing but a political manual for controlling people with terror. Not even the fascist armies of Hitler engineered such devilish ideas.

In Christ

Truseek

Note: Works of Abdullah Yusuf Ali, Muhammed Marmaduke Pickthall, Rodinson, Martin Lings have been used in this article.

Edited July 17, 2004 by truseek

[Botz]

KB...

Botz - Really! Well then. Please open a thread and accept the challenges of the Qur'an! I will give you just one: [004:082] Do they not consider the Quran (with care)? Had it been from other Than God, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

I've already answered ten challenges to this Surah. Care to try?

As Trueseek has just obliged I will hang on to his coat-tails for the moment and listen with interest as you refute the discrepancy...It is mildly ironic that the Qur'an should issue such a challenge and then be found so wanting...but in my experience of Middle-Eastern culture...truth takes a back-seat to saving face and as long as any sort of gobbledegook can be justified as a refutation it doesn't matter if it makes sense or not.

[nebula]

nebula - The book of Jasher isn't lost... it's available on the web.

Google search on "The Book of Jasher"

This is one of the apochrypal Books of Jasher. There are several (as many as five) separate works by this title, all composed much later than Biblical times. This particular one is a translation of a Hebrew book printed in 1613. Sepir Ha Yasher, the Hebrew title of this book, means the 'Book of the Upright', or 'the Upright or Correct Record'. This title was misread as 'Jasher', and at some point Jasher was treated as a proper name; however the pronoun 'the' (hebrew 'ha') never preceeds proper names.

There is also another spurious Book of Jasher, published 1750, in which Jasher is treated as the name of the author.

This text covers much of the same ground as the traditional Mosaic books of the Bible, from the creation of the world to the death of Moses, albeit with several minor variations. (emphasis mine)

reference page

The Gospels of Thomas and Barnabas were accounts of two of the twelve!

[Botz]

Well said Nebula...spoken from the heart ...I certainly echo your response.

[Leonard]

Well, everybody seems to have covered this pretty well. I'll leave my two cents worth out.

[Guest Katatonic Bliss]

Picking up where I left off....

Qur'an acknowledges the NT as reliable? Ayat please?

I'm not perverting anything. The bible is corrupt and the Qur'an corrects these corruptions. That is Islamic belief.

To the verses in question: Gabriel is the holy spirit. God gave Muhammad revelation through Gabriel It's not: GOD>>>>Gabriel>>>>Muhammad but GOD>>>>G>a>b>r>i>e>l>>>>Muhammad.

Islam does not accept the Bible as the Word of God! The Qur'an does not accept the Bible as the Word of God!!! This is where you try and find error! by using the bible as a proof text for the Qur'an, but this is impossible!!! Read Jeremiah 8:8!

I agree with Deut 13. Let's read a little from the Qur'an:

[002:035] We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."

Sound familiar?

I've got loads more verses!

Wrong. Muhammad rejected the pagan teachings! When Muhammad took back Makkah [Mecca] he went into the Ka'bah and DESTROYED EVERY IDOL, Including his tribes idol. Here's a little article about whether or not Allah is a moon god:

Christians who try to claim that All

[truseek]

Nice copy and paste job, there, to bad that site has no idea what they are talking about.

While Christians will forever speculate on the word "Elohim" (), honest Hebrew speakers would admit that this archaic word for God has a history that is lost to us. The "royal plurality" hypothesis may be a possible explanation for why the word is plural, but this seems to have been unknown to early Hebrew speakers (such as the Jewish missionary who, according to the Kuzari, competed with Muslims and Christians to convert the king of the Khazars in the eighth century). It is difficult however to translate this word to "gods," as the Hebrew text conjugates the verb "to create" in the singular. Regardless, (Elohim) is a plural forum of a more basic root-word for God, (eloh)

The NIV Exhaustive Concordance claims that one can find elohim 2,602 times in the Old Testament. The New International Version translates it 2,242 times as God. It's the most common word in the Old Testament translated as "God."

Therefore, you have more than 2,200 verses that can help you understand what elohim means. If you want to be convinced what elohim means, then start reading those verses.

The name Elohim occurs over 30 times in Genesis 1. Read Genesis 1. What does the name Elohim reveal about God in this chapter? What does it tell you about God's nature or character?

Observe the use of Elohim in these verses. Isaiah 45:18, Jonah 1:9, Psalm 139:13-18, Deuteronomy 10:17, Joshua 2:10-11, Nehemiah 2:4, 20, Isaiah 37:16-20, Isaiah 54:5, the list goes on and on, and if you are willing to study, the meaning of Elohim will become blatantly apprent to you. Playing word games will get us nowhere.

hristians who try to claim that All

[Guest Katatonic Bliss]

Alright Truseek, Here's something to ponder:

[Genesis 1:1 - English Bible - King James Version]

"In the beginning God created

the Heaven and the Earth . . . "

[Genesis 1:1 - Arabic transliteration]

"Fee al-badi' khalaqa Allahu

as-Samaawaat wa al-Ard . . . "

And while you're pondering that, Arabic speaking Christians use the word 'Allah' as well.

Also, the Qur'an refutes the Moon god theory plain and simple: "Among His Sings are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. Adore not the sun and the moon, but adore God, Who created them, if it is Him ye wish to serve. [41:37]"

derived from Baal? Let's see....

[037:125-126] "Will ye call upon Baal and forsake the Best of Creators,-God, your Lord and Cherisher and the Lord and Cherisher of your fathers of old?"

And yes, I've studied Elohim Too bad that it doesn't prove Trinity.

You haven't cited one reference. Why is that?

[truseek]

Alright Truseek, Here's something to ponder:

[Genesis 1:1 - English Bible - King James Version]

"In the beginning God created

the Heaven and the Earth . . . "

[Genesis 1:1 - Arabic transliteration]

"Fee al-badi' khalaqa Allahu

as-Samaawaat wa al-Ard . . . "

And while you're pondering that, Arabic speaking Christians use the word 'Allah' as well.

Also, the Qur'an refutes the Moon god theory plain and simple: "Among His Sings are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. Adore not the sun and the moon, but adore God, Who created them, if it is Him ye wish to serve. [41:37]"

derived from Baal? Let's see....

[037:125-126] "Will ye call upon Baal and forsake the Best of Creators,-God, your Lord and Cherisher and the Lord and Cherisher of your fathers of old?"

And yes, I've studied Elohim Too bad that it doesn't prove Trinity.

You haven't cited one reference. Why is that?

I havent cited one refernce? To what?

The NIV Exhaustive Concordance claims that one can find elohim 2,602 times in the Old Testament. The New International Version translates it 2,242 times as God. It's the most common word in the Old Testament translated as "God."

According to the Encyclopedia of Religion, (not anything by Morey) Allah corresponded to the Babylonian god Baal, and Arabs knew of him long before Mohammed worshipped him as the supreme God. Allah was the god of the Quarysh tribe, from which tribe did Mohammed come?

The point is not that Allah was not used as, and referred to as the One True God, but that Mohammed played on his tribal god in order to gain followers.

In Christ

Truseek