can salvation be lost?

[Jedi4Yahweh]

So, if a Christian were to ask GOD to keep him from falling and present him blameless, if he were to ask GOD not to let him stray from HIS path, you think GOD would say no? GOD would not honor this prayer with a yes?

No where in the bible does it say that God has to honor your prayer. Prayer is not a requirement of salvation, there are two requirements faith and repentance.

Just because you prayed Lord give me eternal security does not mean God will grant you eternal security. I could pray that every day but if I am not willing to turn from sin and put all my trust in Christ it is a useless prayer.

Is God required to answer your prayer???

1 John 3:22 “And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight

Psa 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

There are many reasons why God does not answer all prayers....but one of the main reason is unrepentant sin. So just because you prayed to God to give eternal security does mean God is required to answer.

[leoxiii]

Even if he asks GOD not to let him turn, you say GOD would say not to that request.

A person cannot surrender their free will to God. A person can ask God for the grace to keep them on the straight and narrow, and He will give them that grace in abundance, but never will He take away their free will, which means that at any time they can decide to reject His grace and fall.

A person without free will would no longer be a human being created in the image of God.

[OneLight]

Even if he asks GOD not to let him turn, you say GOD would say not to that request.

A person cannot surrender their free will to God. A person can ask God for the grace to keep them on the straight and narrow, and He will give them that grace in abundance, but never will He take away their free will, which means that at any time they can decide to reject His grace and fall.

A person without free will would no longer be a human being created in the image of God.

Sorry Leo, that quote was from Kross, not me.

[OneLight]

Yes, you have made this very clear that this is how you believe. I am not of the same belief. I do not see anywhere in scripture where free will is removed when one accepts Christ. Your admission that there could never see why anyone would ever think of changing their mind is the basics of your belief. Even though I have to agree that I, in my walk, could ever think of a reason why I would turn from Christ, I am not so arrogant to assume that I never will. I have to keep Him first and foremost in my life and not replace myself on the throne of my heart. That is something we all have to do in every decision we make, is it not?

Allow me to ask you this. If salvation was always ensured to a believer, why would Paul write to the Philippians telling them that they are to work out their salvation with fear and trembling? If what you say is true, there would be no cause to fear nor tremble, but to just realize that they are humans and will make mistakes. There has to be a reason why this phrase is spoken of more then once in scripture.

What you call to "arrogant to assume i never will" I call trusting JESUS enough to know HE will never allow it. I put my faith and trust in JEUS, not in myself. I do not feel you can trust JESUS too much. Some think you can.

The same reason he told the Corinthians to make their "Calling and election sure". Becasue the fear of GOD is the beginning, becasue not working out your salvation with fear and trembling might lead one to think they are saved when they are not.

Why does Paul state we are sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT until the day of redemption? Why does Paul state that the ones who are THe Called are the ones who were predestined to it? And then say they were also justified and glorified? And then state that nothing can separate them from the love of GOD that they have in CHRIST JESUS?

As you know, we can toss scriptures back and forth and neaither one of us will believe the other plus this thread was not established to be a WHO CHOSE WHO debate. (although that is fundamental as to whether the one doing the choosing can or will unchoose)

And, just for the record, I am more of the belief that the will is not free until GOD sets it free. "Those whom the SON sets free are free indeed" The very principle of which is that a person is a captive that needs to be set free in the first place. So, I do not believe one looses "Free Will" at salvation. I believe one gains it.

I have no disagreement with the belief that when one remains in Christ that they are sealed, protected, and secure. Where we differ is that I believe that we continue to have a free will and if we, through free will, decide not to continue in Him, and leave, that they will forfeit their salvation and you do not.

So, if a Christian were to ask GOD to keep him from falling and present him blameless, if he were to ask GOD not to let him stray from HIS path, you think GOD would say no? GOD would not honor this prayer with a yes?

"For we know that all things work together for the good of those who lov e GOD, who are The Called according to HIS purpose" doesn't mean that GOD is working all things for the eternal good of those who love HIM? This would include working all things so they continue to love HIM, since that is part of "ALL things"

Please read all that I have written to you about this subject. Nowhere have I ever disagreed with you about those who remain in His will. I don't know why you keep bring it up??

Our disagreement is about if a believer can/may turn from Christ if they decide to. I believe that someone, who hardens their heart against God after salvation, can turn from Him. I have also agreed with you questioning why someone would want to do this, but scripture never tells us that the moment we accept Christ, we loose our free will.

I will also say that you do not believe in free will, but predestination, which is the reason you do not think anyone could turn from Christ after receiving salvation. You do not believe that a person can choose or reject salvation. So, in turn, if you do not believe we choose to be saved, you will never believe that we can reject salvation, before or after being saved. Am I wrong in understanding your position?

You keep saying that a Christian can turn. Even if he asks GOD not to let him turn, you say GOD would say not to that request. How can all things work for good if a man who loves GOD can wind up not loving GOD. This is not working for the good.

You are correct. I believe JESUS died for those GOD gave to HIM. All that the FATHER has given HIM will come to HIM and of them HE will loose none.

Show me anywhere that I said those words. You are reading into what I have said. I said that a person can ask for forgiveness and at some point later in their life, decide that they really don't believe anymore. I never once said that God would refuse anyone that was asking Him for strength.

I asked this question;

So, if a Christian were to ask GOD to keep him from falling and present him blameless, if he were to ask GOD not to let him stray from HIS path, you think GOD would say no? GOD would not honor this prayer with a yes?

Your response;

Our disagreement is about if a believer can/may turn from Christ if they decide to. I believe that someone, who hardens their heart against God after salvation, can turn from Him. I have also agreed with you questioning why someone would want to do this, but scripture never tells us that the moment we accept Christ, we loose our free will.

How am I to take this answer other than GOD would not honor this prayer? So, give me a yes or no answer to this question and I will be certain of what you are saying.

Exactly as I said it. If someone did not believe, why would they be asking a God that they do not believe in. If a person did believe, then they would never turn from Him. I thought that was obvious enough?

To answer your question, if the answer was the only means left for the person to remain in Him, then yes. Have you ever asked for something and not receive it, maybe due to a lesson you yet had not learned? God does not always answer our prayers as we want Him to. He answers them according to His will.

[leoxiii]

Even if he asks GOD not to let him turn, you say GOD would say not to that request.

A person cannot surrender their free will to God. A person can ask God for the grace to keep them on the straight and narrow, and He will give them that grace in abundance, but never will He take away their free will, which means that at any time they can decide to reject His grace and fall.

A person without free will would no longer be a human being created in the image of God.

Sorry Leo, that quote was from Kross, not me.

Apologies. (All them quote bars gets confusing . )

[Smalcald]

Well yeah Kross, if a person asks those things it means they have faith.

God would never deny a person who seeks Him and has faith in Him.

But I keep having people say that GOD would let a person turn from HIM and be lost. That doesn't make sense if GOD answers prayer, and it really doesn't make sense if GOD makes all things work for good to those who love HIM. If a person loves GOD and then walks away, how is it that GOD made all things work for that persons good? That is not good.

So if I pray for God to let me sin as I please and do as I please, and believe as I please in the future, and still not be lost, how would God receive that prayer?

We have free will is the bottom line. I guess the question is do we not have free will if we have faith in Christ?

Remember we are not talking about Christ rejecting someone who has faith, who truly desires salvation from Christ, we are talking about someone who does not really care. So the question is why, why would they do that? I have no idea really I can't imagine it as I am sure you cannot imagine it either, all we are pointing out is that in scripture people have faith in Christ and do not continue in that faith but walk away.

The parable of the sower says that the cares of the world choke out the Word, which was at first received with joy.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

So if I pray for God to let me sin as I please and do as I please, and believe as I please in the future, and still not be lost, how would God receive that prayer?

We have free will is the bottom line. I guess the question is do we not have free will if we have faith in Christ?

Remember we are not talking about Christ rejecting someone who has faith, who truly desires salvation from Christ, we are talking about someone who does not really care. So the question is why, why would they do that? I have no idea really I can't imagine it as I am sure you cannot imagine it either, all we are pointing out is that in scripture people have faith in Christ and do not continue in that faith but walk away.

The parable of the sower says that the cares of the world choke out the Word, which was at first received with joy.

I don't think anyone purposely rejects God after they become believers. Its through the deceitfulness of lust and sin that causes our hearts to harden and faith to weaken toward God. Eventually this person is not living in faith but is denying Christ by his or her actions. They may honor God with their mouth but their heart is far from him.

This is why we are told that we must endure till the end, because some people give up and walk away from the faith. They may still go to church and go through the motions but they have abandoned their true faith.

Take care, brethren, lest there should be in any one of you an evil unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called 'Today,' lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end (Hebrews 3:12-14).

Notice it says IF we hold fast until the end.

[leoxiii]

Notice it says we must hold fast until the end to have this assurance.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

Hmmm..... the very words of Christ Himself.

[HAZARD]

Think about it. Would Jesus have warned his disciples so often if it could not be lost? Would the apostles have warned their church so often if it could not be lost? One must have faith in Jesus until one's dying breath. As one person put it, rather crudely, -- God is not a rapist. He draws us in with his love. If we choose to reject him, he does not stay where he is not wanted. he stands at the door and knocks, like a gentleman. if you cast Jesus out of your life, you cast your own life out. Many people who followed Jesus in john 6 walked no longer with him once he talked about eating his body and drinking his blood. for a while, they believed, like the seed that was cast in rocky ground and grew up quickly, but eventually withered. it is only the seed that fell in the good and fertile ground that grew and produced fruit (30, 60, 100 fold), and that is the seed/ground that is saved. how do you know you're saved? ask yourself if you believe in Jesus. If so, then don't worry. but keep in mind, if you want to get rid of Jesus, he will allow that too. his sheep know him, and they follow him. he does not cast any out that come to him. but if you cast him out, you cast out your own life.

Well said.

Haz.

[Smalcald]

So if I pray for God to let me sin as I please and do as I please, and believe as I please in the future, and still not be lost, how would God receive that prayer?

We have free will is the bottom line. I guess the question is do we not have free will if we have faith in Christ?

Remember we are not talking about Christ rejecting someone who has faith, who truly desires salvation from Christ, we are talking about someone who does not really care. So the question is why, why would they do that? I have no idea really I can't imagine it as I am sure you cannot imagine it either, all we are pointing out is that in scripture people have faith in Christ and do not continue in that faith but walk away.

The parable of the sower says that the cares of the world choke out the Word, which was at first received with joy.

I don't think anyone purposely rejects God after they become believers. Its through the deceitfulness of lust and sin that causes our hearts to harden and faith to weaken toward God. Eventually this person is not living in faith but is denying Christ by his or her actions. They may honor God with their mouth but their heart is far from him.

This is why we are told that we must endure till the end, because some people give up and walk away from the faith. They may still go to church and go through the motions but they have abandoned their true faith.

Take care, brethren, lest there should be in any one of you an evil unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called 'Today,' lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end (Hebrews 3:12-14).

Notice it says IF we hold fast until the end.

Good points. I do think that you are correct no one who has faith suddenly says oh forgett it, b ut indeed lust and sin harden our hearts until we may fade away.

I mean I can see that in my own life it makes sense. When I don't go to Church for a variety of false excuses, when I sin and do not care enough about that sin, I can feel myself falling away little by little, it is a real thing and must be taken very seriously.