can salvation be lost?

[kross]

I have alwyas believed that salvation could not be lost and i have seen great scripture supporting both that it can and cannot be lost.

what do others think and what scripture leads you to think this?

let's look at three compelling reasons for believers to trust in eternal security.

1. The Finished Work of Christ: Reason #1 is the finished work of Christ indeed. We read in Hebrews 10 (another portion of the very same epistle that contains this oft-misinterpreted text in chapter 6) that when the Lord Jesus Christ came into the world and offered Himself without spot to God, the effect of His sacrifice was eternal. We read specifically in Hebrews 10:1-18 about the contrast between sacrifices under the law and the finished work of Christ. The conclusion: "but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." This concept is as clear as words can get, I do believe. How should we answer if someone asks us for how long this sacrifice perfects believers? Do we say "for as long as believers are faithful?" This verse cannot be read to say anything but "he hath perfected for ever them

[kross]

From my research on the term "Once Saved, Always Saved", I have found that this term came into play from Evangelist that were preaching against the Calvinist doctrine "Perseverance of the Saints". Since then, the term has become very popular and is used to describe the Calvinist doctrine. Right or wrong, it is here and is being used.

Personally, I find fault in both the Calvinist and Armenian doctrines. I neither believe that once a person is saved, no matter what they do, they will continue to be saved no more then I believe that salvation can be lost, as if being snatched out of Gods hand. What I believe is that those who continue in Him will, in the end, be with Him. Those who choose not to continue will, in the end, not be with Him.

As with every doctrine of men, the truth lies somewhere between the two.

As you know, I am far more of the Calvinist mindset than thou. I do agree with all of what you just wrote, I just do not think that a man who is truly indwelt and kept by the HOLY SPIRIT will leave CHRIST.

Not for any coercion, but for the fact that a living spirit is drawn to the GOD of the living by it's nature.

[Rhonda Lou]

As you know, I am far more of the Calvinist mindset than thou. I do agree with all of what you just wrote, I just do not think that a man who is truly indwelt and kept by the HOLY SPIRIT will leave CHRIST.

Not for any coercion, but for the fact that a living spirit is drawn to the GOD of the living by it's nature.

Amen and Amen!! Left to our own devices, we would wander, but if truly saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, we would not stray. The Holy Spirit is given as a guarantee of a future in heaven. I still belive those being saved for the purpose of entering heaven upon their deaths (insurance policy) with every intention of continuing in their sin were never really saved. YES, true believers get inot heaven, but salvation is first and foremost, victory over the power of sin -- being meade a new creature who adamantly HATES sin!! True Christians give into the flesh, and "fall into" sin" but a true Christian would never actively seek it out. To do so means the person has missed the whole point of salvation. Such a one could "fall away" because they were never really there. A true Christian avoids sin like the plague, is totally distressed when it manages to get them, and therefore repents and forsakes the sin which caught them. Such a one, filled with the Holy Spirit, cannot lose salvation. The Holy Spirit sanctifies those truly saved, and changes them from glory to glory into the image of God.

[OneLight]

From my research on the term "Once Saved, Always Saved", I have found that this term came into play from Evangelist that were preaching against the Calvinist doctrine "Perseverance of the Saints". Since then, the term has become very popular and is used to describe the Calvinist doctrine. Right or wrong, it is here and is being used.

Personally, I find fault in both the Calvinist and Armenian doctrines. I neither believe that once a person is saved, no matter what they do, they will continue to be saved no more then I believe that salvation can be lost, as if being snatched out of Gods hand. What I believe is that those who continue in Him will, in the end, be with Him. Those who choose not to continue will, in the end, not be with Him.

As with every doctrine of men, the truth lies somewhere between the two.

As you know, I am far more of the Calvinist mindset than thou. I do agree with all of what you just wrote, I just do not think that a man who is truly indwelt and kept by the HOLY SPIRIT will leave CHRIST.

Not for any coercion, but for the fact that a living spirit is drawn to the GOD of the living by it's nature.

And I agree with what you say also. The difference that I can see is that your message tells us to keep our eye on Christ and you will be safe, and what I say is be careful you do not turn from Christ. This is the same message, but spoken using different words. Both are scriptural, leading to the same end if followed.

[answered prayer]

i absolutely believe what one light said. the swaggart ministry teaches alot of good stuff on this subject. if it were not so that christians could not lose their salvation, then why is apostle paul continually talking to and warning christians? it is never on God's side or fault that we could lose it, we will always have that free will on our own. never in scripture does it say we are robots and free will is taken from us, even after we are saved.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Oct 20 2009, 05:31 AM)

Eternal Security is not based on Calvinism it is not the same as "perserverance of the saints. Furthermore, you have it backwards. OSAS is a label for Eternal Security, but OSAS is what in ignorant and misinformed people use to distort and misapply values to Eternal Security.

What ever dude they mean exactly the same no matter how you twist it.

No they do not. Perserverance of the Saints is predicated on Unconitional Election. From that perspective a person cannot be lost due to a choice God made.

Eternal Security is predicated on a transformed heart. That is the litmus test of a real Christian. A real Christian would not go looking for ways to live in sin. The inward transformation of heart brings a new set of desires. It is not a case of claiming that a person can sin as much as they want, but that a true believer won't live in a manner that displeases the Lord. It doesn't mean, they won't sin at times, but they are not living habitually in sin.

OSAS is a faux doctrine that people like you made up. It dosen't exist.

QUOTE

The fact remains that you are not really qualified to address biblical doctrine.

Not qualified??? Oh forgive me for not being qualified to read and understand the bible. Can you be any more arrogant?

So whats your qualifications, oh great one? (or I am to lowly to ask such a great thing of thee.)

I did not say you are not qualified to read and understand the Bible. I said you are not qualified to address biblical doctrine. You twist and contort doctrines AND you are either unable to or refuse to correctly frame your opponent's position. It bascially disqualifies you from any serious doctrinal discussion. You simply don't know how to discuss doctrine without creating a confusing mess.

QUOTE

You demonsrate no understanding of the most basic elements of true Christian doctrine. You cannot even tell the difference between Eternal Security and Perserverance of the Saints.

There is no difference. No matter what name you give it. Its still the same lie.

There is actually quite a bit of difference, and if you had any skill in doctrinal matters, you would know that.

They both mean a Christian can not lose his or her salvation, no matter what?

That is not what Eternal Secuirty teaches.

Your only twist is if they do fall away and do something hideous, then you say, they were never saved in the first place.

The problem there is that in order to say someone has lost their salvation, you would have to be able to see their heart to know that they were saved in the first place. It is impossible to claim that salvation has been lost if you are unable to see into the heart of a person as only God can in order to claim they were saved, and at which point they "lost" it.

The nature of salvation is such that security rests upon Christ, not on our works. People like you are under the delusion that you can be good enough to stay saved. Your works no matter how holy and righteous they may appear in your eyes are still stained by sin. That will not change until sin is fully eradicated. We are still human and the taint of sin has not been eradicated from us at this point.

Your position makes salvation dependent on your strength and your resources. Unless you endure, unless you perform well enough you won't make it. The problem is that you can't endure good enough, nor perform well enough to keep your salvation sure. The only person who ever lived up to God's standard was Jesus and that was because Jesus was able not only to fulfill God's will without the stain of sin, but Jesus was also able to fulfill the righteousness of the law. YOU cannot do that. The only way "enduring to the end" will keep your salvation sure is if you live it out to the same extent to the same level of perfection Jesus did . Good luck. Let me know that works for you.

So since you don't know for sure if he or she will fall away and commit apostasy how can you guarantee or teach anyone that hey have eternally security?

Well, see I rely on what the Bible says about that: "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." (1 John 3:6-9)

A real Christian will not end up living in apostacy according to the Word of God. The idea that a person will get saved and then run out commit atrocities flies in the face of what the Bible says. The Bible says such a person is not born of God.

I can see it now, "Now that you have come to my alter and said your lil' sinners prayer, your now Eternally Secure.......but in the future if you so happen to go and do some thingy really horrible such as murder, incest, adultery, oops scratch adultery, molestation etc.., we are going to deny that we ever guaranteed Eternal Security and we are going to say, you were ever saved to began with."

Again, it only shows your woeful ignorance. No one puts any faith in "the sinner's prayer." The sinner's prayer has no salvific properties. It is nothing more than point of contact. It is for the benefit of person being saved, not for God's benefit. It provides them with a memory of the time and place they were saved.

[exrockstar]

Eternal Security is predicated on a transformed heart. That is the litmus test of a real Christian. A real Christian would not go looking for ways to live in sin. The inward transformation of heart brings a new set of desires. It is not a case of claiming that a person can sin as much as they want, but that a true believer won't live in a manner that displeases the Lord. It doesn't mean, they won't sin at times, but they are not living habitually in sin.

Shiloh, this surprises me. I didn't know Eternal Security relies on self-transformation. Plus you place your security on the amount of

sin present in one's life? Sin isn't the culprit. I def don't believe you can lose your salvation but I've never understood eternal security until you've explained it.

If sin is the culprit then the sting of sin IS death.

But God said "the sting of death is sin...." 1 Cor 15:55

my my my.....is sin a factor in salvation?

[Smalcald]

He did not say self transformation.

[exrockstar]

He did not say self transformation.

"The inward transformation of heart brings a new set of desires."

Like Barak Obama said...."CHANGE."

[OneLight]

He did not say self transformation.

"The inward transformation of heart brings a new set of desires."

Like Barak Obama said...."CHANGE."

No, as His word tells us ...

2 Corinthians 5:17

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Ephesians 4:24

and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Colossians 3:10

and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,

Our Brother never used the word "self".