Were the Twelve and the Seventy Unique ?

[lekh l'kha]

Well, KCO2, as long as you don't speak with a forked tongue, I guess you're entitled to your opinion, even though you haven't been able to base it on Biblical facts, and have failed miserably in your attempts to do so in this thread.

But tell me something, do you believe that the fruit of the Spirit (Gal.5: 22-23) is (a) equally as important as the gifts of the Spirit; or (b) more important than the gifts of the Spirit? In other words, would the Lord want Christians to go around with power from on High if they can't even consistently produce the fruit of the Spirit?

Lekh

I'll add the churches of Christ to my list. I know the Wesleyans and Southern Baptists are anti-charismatic and do not generally believe in the operation of the gifts today.

I have always wanted to ask these people what they do when people ask for prayer! Shouldn't the preacher inform the seeker that God no longer preforms miracles and refuse to pray about healings and miracles? That sounds reasonable to me. Why waste yours and God's time?

It shocks me when brothers in Christ say that not having miracles of the apostles desttroys faith, and that not having miracles tosses out the central teaching of the New Testament.

Your assumption that only apostles preformed miracles is wrong. You absolutely know the 70 preformed miracles of healing in Jesus' name. We have already covered this to death. Also the gift of miracles is attached to the church, not the apostles. You should include 1 Cor in your "Biblical record." I said not believing in miracles ignores a central teaching of Christ.

Not having people other than the apostles doing miracles should certainly not destroy faith, because God showed His ominpotence (as opposed to the impotence of Buddha, Mohammed, etc) once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead, and we do not need miracles to believe it, because we have the testimony of the Holy Spirit that these things are so:

Christians do not need miracles to believe. They need miracles because they get sick just like everyone else.

Whether in jest or not I don't know, but someone posting in this thread told me via PM that I'm too far gone for him to help. Don't worry, brother - my faith is in Jesus and His death and resurrection alone and I don't need miracles because I have the witness of the Holy Spirit that God showed His ominpotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead. Miracles and signs are for unbelievers, not for me, personally.

Well it certainly sounds like it was said in jest. If miracles aren't for you, that is fine. But I don't think one can be saved without a miracle of being born again.

God showing His omnipotence through miracles and signs (plural) is not central to the New Testament - the death and resurrection of Jesus is central not only to the New Testament and entire Bible, but to the entire universe, because the eternal destiny of God's entire creation depends on the miracle of salvation. God showed is omnipotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead.

Jesus said,

"A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. And there shall no sign be given to it, except the sign of the prophet Jonah. And He left them and went away." (Mat.16: 4).

What is "the sign of the prophet Jonah"?

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the huge fish, so the Son of Man shall be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Mat 12:40).

In other words, Jesus says, "This is the only sign that God will give a wicked and adulterous generation who seek after signs"

The Israelites in the wilderness would only believe in God when they saw His miracles. They believed when He miraculously delivered them from the hand of the Egyptians, and then straight afterward they stopped believing and grumbled. Then they believed when He miraculously provided them with bread, buit afterward they stopped believing and grumbled. Then they believed when He miraculously provided them with quail, and afterward they stopped belileving and grumbled..... This went on for forty years and as a result, an entire generation perished in the wilderness because of their unbelief (Heb.3: 17-19).

I don't know exactly where you are going with this. Does any of it prove that God has retired and will never preform another miracle? Or that Christ will never again be "moved with compassion" when a sick person calls on his name?

Paul said,

"For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified." (1Co 2:2)

He did not say, "except Jesus Christ and Him crucified + miracles".

If our faith depends on seeing the power of God (signs, wonders and miracles) we truly run the danger of being caught up in the great delusion writen about in 2Thes.2:

You quote Paul when it is convenient for you and ignore what he writes that doesn't fit within your beliefs (like the gift of miracles for believers). Believing in miracles doesn't make one more vulnerable to delusion than those who deny God's Word.

The Biblical record shows that the Lord was sitting with the twelve only when He said to them:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me, the works that I do he shall do also, and greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father." (Joh 14:12)

It is plain as day who Jesus was talking about ("He who believes on Me"). It doesn't matter who He was speaking to. This is not a fill in the blank verse. As they say, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. The rules of grammar and logic still apply to verses you disagree with.

And the Biblical record shows that Paul called miracles "the signs of an apostle", and the Biblical record says that it was the eleven + Paul who went out performing miracles.

Miracles DO occur today - like the miracles of a couple of months ago which I mentioned when a woman on her deathbed was COMPLETELY healed after the prayers of the church she attends, as well as of others not from her church. But seeking after signs is sinful, and thanks to the teaching of many churches, many, many Christians in the Western world have become miraculous/supernatural signs junkies.

The question is not what God can do - because He can do anything and has shown His omnipotence once for all time when Jesus rose from the dead. The question is what WILL God do and what are Christians today demanding of Him to do.

Lekh

How did the woman get healed without an apostle? You keep saying that God only used apostles to do miracles but accept that this woman was healed. How do you believe two different things at once?

I do not know what you believe. You ignore verses, rewrite verses, and recite verses that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. You insist that you believe the Bible and that those that believe in miracles are headed for a delusion all the while claiming that God can still do miracles.

Say what?

KC02 it looks like you have run into one of the OPTIONAL BELIEFS of one of the churches of Christ. I use the word OPTIONAL because churches of Christ can choose to believe in or disbelieve certain doctrinal beliefs. But are connected by a number of common doctrinal beliefs. However almost all of the churches of Christ believe that miricle works of the Holy Spirit died out with the apostles which actually denies the works of one part of the trinity they claim to believe in. The fact of the matter is that the manifested works of the Holy Spirit are for the unsaved to see and to glorify God and His Son. At least that is what I believe.

There really isn't any point in trying to speak good biblical logic to anyone who belongs to a church of Christ because they are shall we say brain washed. They They believe that they are the only AUTHORIZED CHURCH left here on earth by Christ who can is authorized to interpret the word of God rightly and that if you do not belong to their church you are going to hell.

Being brain washed as they are about certain things has put a very thick wall between them and biblical truth. Having these biblical discussions about the bible with lekh and destroysothers who believe in the denial of tbelievinghe writtenpower of God.

Smiraclecripture speaks this very belief and the members of the churches of Christ fit the biblical distribution to the T. 2 TIMOTHY 3:5-7 " Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which CREEP into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts. Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So my brother why try to get Lehk to see the truth when he has actually been self blinded to the truth. Only complete deliverance IE a miracle from the Holy Spirit can take away the bondage he has been bound with.

No insult intended here. Just the facts.

[kross]

I'll add the churches of Christ to my list. I know the Wesleyans and Southern Baptists are anti-charismatic and do not generally believe in the operation of the gifts today.

I have always wanted to ask these people what they do when people ask for prayer! Shouldn't the preacher inform the seeker that God no longer preforms miracles and refuse to pray about healings and miracles? That sounds reasonable to me. Why waste yours and God's time?

This is just one of the most rediculous statements I have ever seen in print. What makes you think Southern Baptists do not believe in the gifts? OK, they do not believe in speaking in tounges, I'll give you that, but "anti-charismatic"?

Southern Baptists are anti laughing and rolling around in the isles when the word of GOD is supposed to be going forth. We are with scripture when it states all things should be done in an orderly fashion. But anti-charismatic? You haven't been in many modern SBC churches lately.

[KC02]

It is the position of the southern Baptists (and Wesleyans) that talking in tongues has ceased along with the other gifts. I think one poll showed that most SB believe in them despite the doctrinal stance of the SBC.

No, I never visit baptist churches because of their beliefs.

I'll add the churches of Christ to my list. I know the Wesleyans and Southern Baptists are anti-charismatic and do not generally believe in the operation of the gifts today.

I have always wanted to ask these people what they do when people ask for prayer! Shouldn't the preacher inform the seeker that God no longer preforms miracles and refuse to pray about healings and miracles? That sounds reasonable to me. Why waste yours and God's time?

This is just one of the most rediculous statements I have ever seen in print. What makes you think Southern Baptists do not believe in the gifts? OK, they do not believe in speaking in tounges, I'll give you that, but "anti-charismatic"?

Southern Baptists are anti laughing and rolling around in the isles when the word of GOD is supposed to be going forth. We are with scripture when it states all things should be done in an orderly fashion. But anti-charismatic? You haven't been in many modern SBC churches lately.

[OneLight]

I'll add the churches of Christ to my list. I know the Wesleyans and Southern Baptists are anti-charismatic and do not generally believe in the operation of the gifts today.

I have always wanted to ask these people what they do when people ask for prayer! Shouldn't the preacher inform the seeker that God no longer preforms miracles and refuse to pray about healings and miracles? That sounds reasonable to me. Why waste yours and God's time?

This is just one of the most rediculous statements I have ever seen in print. What makes you think Southern Baptists do not believe in the gifts? OK, they do not believe in speaking in tounges, I'll give you that, but "anti-charismatic"?

Southern Baptists are anti laughing and rolling around in the isles when the word of GOD is supposed to be going forth. We are with scripture when it states all things should be done in an orderly fashion. But anti-charismatic? You haven't been in many modern SBC churches lately.

The problem is that tongues and their interpretation are both gifts. You can not pick and choose what you want out of scripture. Like you, I do not follow any group that thinks rolling on the floor and laughing hysterically is of God no more then acting like animals on all fours. There is a lot of garbage out there and He will let you know which is of Him and which is not, which, in itself, is another gift. They are active ... all of them.

[kross]

It is the position of the southern Baptists (and Wesleyans) that talking in tongues has ceased along with the other gifts. I think one poll showed that most SB believe in them despite the doctrinal stance of the SBC.

No, I never visit baptist churches because of their beliefs.

So, how do you know what they believe?

[kross]

I'll add the churches of Christ to my list. I know the Wesleyans and Southern Baptists are anti-charismatic and do not generally believe in the operation of the gifts today.

I have always wanted to ask these people what they do when people ask for prayer! Shouldn't the preacher inform the seeker that God no longer preforms miracles and refuse to pray about healings and miracles? That sounds reasonable to me. Why waste yours and God's time?

This is just one of the most rediculous statements I have ever seen in print. What makes you think Southern Baptists do not believe in the gifts? OK, they do not believe in speaking in tounges, I'll give you that, but "anti-charismatic"?

Southern Baptists are anti laughing and rolling around in the isles when the word of GOD is supposed to be going forth. We are with scripture when it states all things should be done in an orderly fashion. But anti-charismatic? You haven't been in many modern SBC churches lately.

The problem is that tongues and their interpretation are both gifts. You can not pick and choose what you want out of scripture. Like you, I do not follow any group that thinks rolling on the floor and laughing hysterically is of God no more then acting like animals on all fours. There is a lot of garbage out there and He will let you know which is of Him and which is not, which, in itself, is another gift. They are active ... all of them.

Indeed

[KC02]

The problem is that tongues and their interpretation are both gifts. You can not pick and choose what you want out of scripture. Like you, I do not follow any group that thinks rolling on the floor and laughing hysterically is of God no more then acting like animals on all fours. There is a lot of garbage out there and He will let you know which is of Him and which is not, which, in itself, is another gift. They are active ... all of them.

I agree with all of that. And I don't do much rolling on the floor nor have I made animal sounds since I was in kindergarten I don't even like to break out the rattlesnakes or pass the mason jars filled with strychnine, except for special occasions.

There is a lot of garbage out there.

So, how do you know what they believe?

I think it is something I picked up studying church history, but it is a little fuzzy right now. It would be interesting to read their official stance. Anyway I will look into it. It should be easy to find.

[KC02]

Well, KCO2, as long as you don't speak with a forked tongue, I guess you're entitled to your opinion, even though you haven't been able to base it on Biblical facts, and have failed miserably in your attempts to do so in this thread.

You have not been able to prove that God has retired, either.

But tell me something, do you believe that the fruit of the Spirit (Gal.5: 22-23) is (a) equally as important as the gifts of the Spirit; or (b) more important than the gifts of the Spirit? In other words, would the Lord want Christians to go around with power from on High if they can't even consistently produce the fruit of the Spirit?

You guys have forty-eleven different excuses as to why God can't / won't / doesn't do miracles anymore. Miracles are the result of God's grace, not because we are so deserving, holy or have more fruit than the next person.

[EricH]

The time of the 12 and 70 was a transitionary period in God's redemptive plan. As the new covenant came into force and new scriptures were being written, there were unique roles that needed to be fulfilled at this time in history.

But do you believe.......

Were they gifted with powers and insight that no believer since then has been given?

I believe they had the authority to write inerrant scripture. Something no believer today has. It is probably more a question of roles than specific gifts or insight.

Point that I am trying to make is that we, today are inheritors of everything that they were, and IF God sees fit to anoint any one of us , He has given us the wherewithall to accomplish His will.

What I don't like about believing that the 12 or 70 had special powers, and, or gifts, is that it tends to destroy faith.

One today, might say, "How can we lay hands on the sick, and see them recover, that was only for the apostles."

And that mindset HAS destroyed faith.

As I said, the issue is one of them having a unique role in God's redemptive plan. They were foundational. The scriptures seem to indicate the foundational nature of their ministry:

So then you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with the saints, and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. (Ephesians 2:19-20 HCSB)

So while I agree with you that God will always do what He wants, we can rest assured He will not relay the foundation of His redemptive plan. He has promised that what He built through the current foundation is the only solution:

Long ago God spoke to the fathers by the prophets at different times and in different ways. In these last days, He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things and through whom He made the universe. (Hebrews 1:1-2 HCSB)

I have one other thought about what you said here:

What I don't like about believing that the 12 or 70 had special powers, and, or gifts, is that it tends to destroy faith.

I think we need to be careful evaluating the truth of a proposition based on the perceived outcome we think would happen if the proposition were to be true. The logic is that A can't be true because if A were to be true, bad things (or at least things that I don't like) would happen. The fact that bad things happen as a result of a thing being true does not make it false. This is known as a logical fallacy called the Appeal to Fear.

Here is a summary of why this reasoning can't be true

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Clear_Thi...al_to_fear.html

[lekh l'kha]

The time of the 12 and 70 was a transitionary period in God's redemptive plan. As the new covenant came into force and new scriptures were being written, there were unique roles that needed to be fulfilled at this time in history.

But do you believe.......

Were they gifted with powers and insight that no believer since then has been given?

I believe they had the authority to write inerrant scripture. Something no believer today has. It is probably more a question of roles than specific gifts or insight.

Point that I am trying to make is that we, today are inheritors of everything that they were, and IF God sees fit to anoint any one of us , He has given us the wherewithall to accomplish His will.

What I don't like about believing that the 12 or 70 had special powers, and, or gifts, is that it tends to destroy faith.

One today, might say, "How can we lay hands on the sick, and see them recover, that was only for the apostles."

And that mindset HAS destroyed faith.

As I said, the issue is one of them having a unique role in God's redemptive plan. They were foundational. The scriptures seem to indicate the foundational nature of their ministry:

So then you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with the saints, and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. (Ephesians 2:19-20 HCSB)

So while I agree with you that God will always do what He wants, we can rest assured He will not relay the foundation of His redemptive plan. He has promised that what He built through the current foundation is the only solution:

Long ago God spoke to the fathers by the prophets at different times and in different ways. In these last days, He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things and through whom He made the universe. (Hebrews 1:1-2 HCSB)

I have one other thought about what you said here:

What I don't like about believing that the 12 or 70 had special powers, and, or gifts, is that it tends to destroy faith.

I think we need to be careful evaluating the truth of a proposition based on the perceived outcome we think would happen if the proposition were to be true. The logic is that A can't be true because if A were to be true, bad things (or at least things that I don't like) would happen. The fact that bad things happen as a result of a thing being true does not make it false. This is known as a logical fallacy called the Appeal to Fear.

Here is a summary of why this reasoning can't be true

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Clear_Thi...al_to_fear.html

Thank you, Eric. I notice that the author said:

(Quote) CHANGING THE SUBJECT

The fallacies in this section change the subject by discussing the person making the argument instead of discussing reasons to believe or disbelieve the conclusion.

1. Attacking the person: (ad hominem)... (unquote).

Instead of sticking to a logical discussion of the subject and my argument (which is based entirely upon a study of all the records of and references to signs, wonders and miracles from the book of Acts trhough to the book of Jude), in this thread I was told (1) that I'm "too far gone for one of the debaters in this thread to help"; and (2) that I'm bound by my own spiritual blindness.

I think it's a good thing that you could bring back a form of sane, rational discussion to this debate, because some of the remarks which were made by those who could not prove their case from the Bible were emotionally-charged, irrational and at times quite hysterical, and directed against a person instead of against an argument. Evidently, such remarks prove the point of those who make them, in their opinion.

I can't understand why it is that Christians can't acknowledge that the apostles were definitely given more signs to follow their ministry than any Christians since.

Missionaries in the field acrross the centuries have testified to God's miraculous healing of this person and that person through prayer, and it's not as though anyone in this thread was arguing that God doesn't "do" miracles today. The argument is about whether the supernatural signs the apostles did and which were signs for unbelievers, are all operative today. Those signs were never for the entertainment of believers - not in the days of the apostles, and the Biblical record shows this.

Let's argue the point logically, as Eric is trying to show, instead of with the irrational, emotionally-charged and at times hysterical personal attacks which has so characterised the "debate" of some in this thread.

Lekh