Were the Twelve and the Seventy Unique ?

[OneLight]

Then the Holy Spirit moved upon the Disciples and the 70. We, on the other hand, have the Holy Spirit indwelling us. The reason that great healing is not occurring today is because we do not have the faith of a mustard seed. We have faith, but there is also doubt; this doubt prevents the Holy Spirit from doing all He can do through us.

God is moving supernaturally today. I can't imagine anyone thinking He is not. The problem is that we get presumptuous in our assumption that because God did something through the apostles, that He should do the same thing through us. God is not obligated to us for that. It is very dangerous to take stories of the apostles and make doctrines out of them.

I agree. Unlike the 12 and the 70, we do not sit under the teachings of Christ as they did and are not guided as they were. Yes, we have the Holy Spirit in us, but are we capable to hear His instructions as Christ did? Are we as dedicated to Him as they were? There is a world of difference between those who were with Christ and us today.

[KC02]

I've heard a few people state that the Apostolic gifts were somehow superior to the gifts the church has now. That might explain the lack of miracles today, but the problem is that that doctrine (two sets of gifts) isn't Biblical.

The gifts of the Spirit are attached to all believers (1 Cor 12, KVJ), not an invented apostolic age. Concerning your post, I would say God is obligated to His Word, and His Word is plain about miracles, believers and the end times. However, I admit that God isn't obligated to my personal interpretation of the Scriptures.

Then the Holy Spirit moved upon the Disciples and the 70. We, on the other hand, have the Holy Spirit indwelling us. The reason that great healing is not occurring today is because we do not have the faith of a mustard seed. We have faith, but there is also doubt; this doubt prevents the Holy Spirit from doing all He can do through us.

God is moving supernaturally today. I can't imagine anyone thinking He is not. The problem is that we get presumptuous in our assumption that because God did something through the apostles, that He should do the same thing through us. God is not obligated to us for that. It is very dangerous to take stories of the apostles and make doctrines out of them.

The reason that great healing is not occurring today is because we do not have the faith of a mustard seed

If we are saved we must have at least that much faith. In Mat 17:17, when some disciples failed to preform a miracle, Jesus didn't tell His disciples, "Oh poor baby. You know the gifts are ceasing now. I'm giving you guys a A for effort."

Jesus was clearly upset at their unbelief. Today Christians wrap their unbelief in religious doctrines that doesn't require miracles. In fact, many deny miracles are for today at all.

I don't think Jesus was be any more pleased with us than those disciples who needed a remedial course in faith. But of course, I do not know everything nor do I have all the answers.

[Guest shiloh357]

I've heard a few people state that the Apostolic gifts were somehow superior to the gifts the church has now. That might explain the lack of miracles today, but the problem is that that doctrine (two sets of gifts) isn't Biblical.

It would be more accurate to say that the supernatural signs that accompanied the apostles were unique as opposed to saying they were superior. Events such as people being healed by Peter's shadow, or the death of Annanias and Saphira are examples of signs that were meant to establish the authority of the Apostles.

Those kinds of signs are NOT promised to believers at large. I would also point out that raising the dead is another apostlic sign (such as occurred in the ministry of Paul) is not something promised to believers at large.

The gifts of the Spirit are attached to all believers (1 Cor 12, KVJ), not an invented apostolic age.

Yet, we find supernatural signs in the lives of the apostles that are not promised to all believers for all time. They were not even for all believers of the 1st century.

Concerning your post, I would say God is obligated to His Word, and His Word is plain about miracles, believers and the end times. However, I admit that God isn't obligated to my personal interpretation of the Scriptures.

God is obligated to His Word, but the problem is that God has not promised anywhere in His word that every sign at work in the lives of the original apostles would be transferred to all believers. Just as there were supernatural signs and events that were unique to the ministry of Jesus, there were supernatural signs unique to the ministry of the original apostles.

[kross]

What is the teaching of most of you here regarding the disciples that were sent out by Jesus ?

Were they gifted with powers and insight that no believer since then has been given?

Were they "set apart" different from all other believers?

AlL Christians are HIS chosen people to be HIS body at work in the world. We all have the promise of doing all that JESUS did and greater things, for HE sits at the right hand of the FATHER interceding on our behalf.

I am convinced that we do not walk in the power we are offered because we do not believe in it or have the faith to excercise it. Since faith is one of the gifts of the SPIRIT, it becomes a case of power we do not excercise because we have not been given the faith to excercise it. Possibly because we would use it wrongly. Possibly because there is a plan going forward that said power would interfere with.

One thing is certain, JESUS, at any time, can give this power and greater to anyone HE wants at any time HE sees fit.

[OneLight]

I've heard a few people state that the Apostolic gifts were somehow superior to the gifts the church has now. That might explain the lack of miracles today, but the problem is that that doctrine (two sets of gifts) isn't Biblical. The gifts of the Spirit are attached to all believers (1 Cor 12, KVJ), not an invented apostolic age. Concerning your post, I would say God is obligated to His Word, and His Word is plain about miracles, believers and the end times. However, I admit that God isn't obligated to my personal interpretation of the Scriptures.

First. the gifts in 1 Corinthians 12:11 are given to each believer as He see fit. Everyone will not get all the gifts. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. Some may get one, another two, a few three and so on. Only the Apostles had all the gifts. After Christ rose from the dead and returned from the Father, the disciples receive His Spirit as HE breathed on them. That WAS different then Acts 2.

John 20:21-23

So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

The Apostolic Age is the time when the Apostles were living. Just like the Apostolic Age, the Church Age is not spoken of in scripture, but we are in it.

[KC02]

Only the Apostles had all the gifts. After Christ rose from the dead and returned from the Father, the disciples receive His Spirit as HE breathed on them. That WAS different then Acts 2.

Jesus Christ is the one who always does the baptizing (Matt 3:11). The Scripture isn't clear if they received at that moment or waited until Pentecost. I can't imagine what "difference" you are referring to. (Same Jesus, same baptism, same gifts ...)

The Apostolic Age is the time when the Apostles were living. Just like the Apostolic Age, the Church Age is not spoken of in scripture, but we are in it.

I've heard that and I have also heard it included everyone who knew the apostles. The apostolic era usually lasts just long enough for someone to use to support their doctrinal beliefs.

Paul wrote a lot about the church (age), but never an apostolic age. It has always sounded a little dubious to me. On the other hand, every time I hear someone being referred as "Apostle So_and_so" I want to roll my eyes.

I guess I am on the fence about that.

[OneLight]

Only the Apostles had all the gifts. After Christ rose from the dead and returned from the Father, the disciples receive His Spirit as HE breathed on them. That WAS different then Acts 2.

Jesus Christ is the one who always does the baptizing (Matt 3:11). The Scripture isn't clear if they received at that moment or waited until Pentecost. I can't imagine what "difference" you are referring to. (Same Jesus, same baptism, same gifts ...)

If they were the same, why would Jesus tell them to wait in Jerusalem until they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit? The difference is that Christ gave them the Holy Spirit when He breathed on them, as stated in the verse I gave. The baptism was sent to them from the Father after that. When Christ baptized His disciples, He gave them the same authority He had. Later, when the gifts are given to the church, the Spirit gives as He sees fit. There is a huge difference between receiving all of authority of Christ and just one or two gifts.

John 14:16

I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

John 14:26

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 15:26-27

But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

Acts 1:4

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, which, He said, you have heard from Me

The Apostolic Age is the time when the Apostles were living. Just like the Apostolic Age, the Church Age is not spoken of in scripture, but we are in it.

I've heard that and I have also heard it included everyone who knew the apostles. The apostolic era usually lasts just long enough for someone to use to support their doctrinal beliefs.

Paul wrote a lot about the church (age), but never an apostolic age. It has always sounded a little dubious to me. On the other hand, every time I hear someone being referred as "Apostle So_and_so" I want to roll my eyes.

I guess I am on the fence about that.

The point I was trying to make is that there made no reference of either age. It was not until afterward that the titles came into play as people tried to place a label on the different times.

[Franky67]

I've heard a few people state that the Apostolic gifts were somehow superior to the gifts the church has now. That might explain the lack of miracles today, but the problem is that that doctrine (two sets of gifts) isn't Biblical.

It would be more accurate to say that the supernatural signs that accompanied the apostles were unique as opposed to saying they were superior. Events such as people being healed by Peter's shadow, or the death of Annanias and Saphira are examples of signs that were meant to establish the authority of the Apostles.

Those kinds of signs are NOT promised to believers at large. I would also point out that raising the dead is another apostlic sign (such as occurred in the ministry of Paul) is not something promised to believers at large.

The gifts of the Spirit are attached to all believers (1 Cor 12, KVJ), not an invented apostolic age.

Yet, we find supernatural signs in the lives of the apostles that are not promised to all believers for all time. They were not even for all believers of the 1st century.

Concerning your post, I would say God is obligated to His Word, and His Word is plain about miracles, believers and the end times. However, I admit that God isn't obligated to my personal interpretation of the Scriptures.

God is obligated to His Word, but the problem is that God has not promised anywhere in His word that every sign at work in the lives of the original apostles would be transferred to all believers. Just as there were supernatural signs and events that were unique to the ministry of Jesus, there were supernatural signs unique to the ministry of the original apostles.

Trouble with the above theology is that it is not stated anywhere in plain words that the apostles were unique in their ministry.

On the contrary, Ephesians 1,2,3 says that all the fullness of God dwells in them.

And then there is this statement from Jesus In Mark 16:17,18

"And these signs will accompany those who have believed, in My name, they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues. They will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them, they will lay hands on the sick and they will recover."

Jesus stipulated "those who believe" do we believe ?

And in Matthew 10:7 Jesus says

"And as you go, preach, saying the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. "

The Kingdom of Heaven, is the Kingdom any different today, than it was when the Apostles preached ? Is the atmosphere of the Kingdom any different, next verse says the sick are to be healed, the dead are to be raised, the lepers are to be cleansed , and the demons cast out.

The Kingdom of Heaven being at hand accomplishes these things. Now as well as then.

No teaching I can find has a limited Holy Spirit dwelling in any believer.

So please lets settle this issue with a scriptural teaching of this belief.

Seminaries are teaching this, with no concrete scripture to back it up.

[KC02]

Onelight, thank you for an interesting post. I may have missed something in the Bible. Where does it say the apostles had all of the gifts operating? If that is true, I would like to see it.

Here the apostle isl speaking to the church. It sounds very much like what Jesus told the disciples.

(1John 2:27 [KJV])

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Many were saying that Paul couldn't be a true apostle because Paul didn't have as many miracles as some of the other believers claimed. Paul often defended himself against this charge and insisted that gifts and miracles didn't define an apostle.

Peter made it clear (Acts 2:16) that the OT prophecies were being fullfilled on Pentecost, and not before. I think it is plain that Jesus instructed his disciples to wait along with the 120 disciples on that day.

It is interesting to see other point of view, even if I believe a little differently.

Seminaries are teaching this, with no concrete scripture to back it up.

Yeah they tried to teach me that too, but I'm not a very good student

Only the Apostles had all the gifts. After Christ rose from the dead and returned from the Father, the disciples receive His Spirit as HE breathed on them. That WAS different then Acts 2.

Jesus Christ is the one who always does the baptizing (Matt 3:11). The Scripture isn't clear if they received at that moment or waited until Pentecost. I can't imagine what "difference" you are referring to. (Same Jesus, same baptism, same gifts ...)

If they were the same, why would Jesus tell them to wait in Jerusalem until they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit? The difference is that Christ gave them the Holy Spirit when He breathed on them, as stated in the verse I gave. The baptism was sent to them from the Father after that. When Christ baptized His disciples, He gave them the same authority He had. Later, when the gifts are given to the church, the Spirit gives as He sees fit. There is a huge difference between receiving all of authority of Christ and just one or two gifts.

John 14:16

I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

John 14:26

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 15:26-27

But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

Acts 1:4

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, which, He said, you have heard from Me

The Apostolic Age is the time when the Apostles were living. Just like the Apostolic Age, the Church Age is not spoken of in scripture, but we are in it.

I've heard that and I have also heard it included everyone who knew the apostles. The apostolic era usually lasts just long enough for someone to use to support their doctrinal beliefs.

Paul wrote a lot about the church (age), but never an apostolic age. It has always sounded a little dubious to me. On the other hand, every time I hear someone being referred as "Apostle So_and_so" I want to roll my eyes.

I guess I am on the fence about that.

The point I was trying to make is that there made no reference of either age. It was not until afterward that the titles came into play as people tried to place a label on the different times.

[Guest shiloh357]

Trouble with the above theology is that it is not stated anywhere in plain words that the apostles were unique in their ministry.

But the Bible does demonstrate it. For example, among the spiritual gifts, there is no gift of "raising the dead."

And then there is this statement from Jesus In Mark 16:17,18

"And these signs will accompany those who have believed, in My name, they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues. They will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them, they will lay hands on the sick and they will recover."

Jesus stipulated "those who believe" do we believe ?

Jesus was not promising those signs to every believer. Rather, it was the signs that followed the community. It was the general characteristic of the community, but the experience of every person in the community.

And in Matthew 10:7 Jesus says

"And as you go, preach, saying the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. "

The Kingdom of Heaven, is the Kingdom any different today, than it was when the Apostles preached ? Is the atmosphere of the Kingdom any different, next verse says the sick are to be healed, the dead are to be raised, the lepers are to be cleansed , and the demons cast out.

The Kingdom of Heaven being at hand accomplishes these things. Now as well as then.

Once again, this only applied to the missionary journey that Jesus was sending his disciples on at that time. It is not meant to be read as being written to the entire church. It only applies to that audience and their unique situation.

No teaching I can find has a limited Holy Spirit dwelling in any believer.

So please lets settle this issue with a scriptural teaching of this belief.

Seminaries are teaching this, with no concrete scripture to back it up.

No one is placing any limits on the Holy Spirit. The problem is that some people with no idea how to exegete biblical texts are trying to make claims to promises that God has never made to them.