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For the record, Ted and I aren't denying the Muslim connection with this guy; we are not denying this as legitimately being called an act of terror (at least I'm not).

What we are against is being quick to label this as a plot, as this man was acting under the authority of a leader or not.

It was very clear this man had "issues".

Now, the uncovering of the communication he had with the cleric/imam (whatever he was called) does leave room open for my opinion to be changed. But again, I will wait for more evidence before I pass judgment.

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Have you really missed all of the posts in at least three threads dealing with this matter where people are calling for the deportation of muslims, weeding them out of the Military and Government, and placing guilt upon all muslims due to this incident? Have you really missed the posts that call for the US Government to place muslims under surveliance because we simply cannot trust them due to the war?
I have seen some that can be taken that way when stripped of the context of conversation. I may not have seen every post you have seen, though.

The problem I see though is that you are complaining about what has been said as if it occurs in a vacuum and it doesn't. It is similar to the criticism Israelis recieve for not wanting to live next to Muslims. There are Jewish neighborhoods in Israel where no Muslims are allowed to live and this has been touted as a discriminative policy even though these same Muslims attend mosques on Israeli soil where the destruction of Israel and the Jews is regularly preached. Yet in spite of that threat, the Jews in those neighborhoods are classified as "racists" or "bigots" simply because they don't want Muslims living in close proxmity with them. The threat of annihilation they have to deal doesn't seem to make any difference.

We have Muslims in this country. Some are peaceful. Some are part of terrorist cells just waiting for the green light to reek havoc on the US. Our problem is that the terrorists disguise themselves to appear peaceful. They live in the suburbs. They drink Starbucks, they have white collar jobs and a two-car garage. They go on picnics, frequent night clubs, take their kids to little league practice and generally behave like decent people, but it is all a ruse. It is ruse to fool people just like you.

Islam cannot take over the US militarily. So the plan is take us over demographically. Their plan is to conquer us from the inside out. They are using our own freedoms and openness/acceptance against us. The very things we hold dear are the very tools of our destruction in the hands of radical Muslims.

This is a problem no one wants to address. You are in a room with two guys, and you know one of them wants to kill you and your family, but don't know which one wants to do it, can you afford to give either man the benefit of the doubt? Until you have managed to figure out which one is after you, both are suspect.

We get little to no help from the greater worldwide Muslim community. They refuse to apprehend, try and execute terrorists in their own countries. They do little to inform us of cells in our country, due in part to the fact, that these nations (many of whom are considered "moderate") are actually bankrolling the terrorists.

So that leaves it to us to either weed out the bad seed or take our chances and wait until a terrorist cell detonates a suitcase nuke in New York, DC or LA and we have to lose millions of lives just because some people were more concerned about protecting the freedom of the terrorists, than they were in protecting the lives of their fellow Americans.

People have indeed called for deportation of muslims, removal of all muslims from military service and government jobs, and people have surely stated that this man who shot up everyone in TX was part of a world religion of which all followers must adhere to the call to kill Americans.

Again, please take a moment and review these threads. You don't have to search far, they are all here in the US News Section. If you cannot find them, I will quote directly from them if need be.

Thanks

Feel free.

I understand everything you are saying, trust me. Fighting radical islam was something I did for the past 8 years on my life. I truly understand how they operate and how they work within the freedoms they enjoy here. I would dare say I've been a part of more briefings, classes, seminars, and conferences dealing with this matter than most people here on the board. I"ve worked with law enforcement and the military within the scope of this same subject and have been to the seat of the battle if you remember. I'm no expert, but I can state that it has engulfed my life for almost a decade.

In other words, I'm trained not to fall for the ruse developed for people like me.

That said, my only real point in all of this was for people to wait just a day or two to see how it develops. From the standpoint of time, I saw no reason to jump to conclusions regarding this individual and saw nothing (at that time) to indicate that it was anything but a lone attacker acting alone. As it turns out, there may be deeper connections and law enforcement will pursue those leads as they are supposed to. It also turns out that this guy was on the radar screen for some time and somehow he was not stopped before he exploded.

As we weed through the mess of information, we can see something that shows us he may have been part of a larger network, and showed signs or indicators that he should have been attended to before something happened.

As I have stated a few times now, I'm open to being wrong, or being updated on the situation. Not a problem.

What I still do not advocate is the deportation of containment of all muslims who are in the US, or the military, or in Govenrment jobs simply because they are muslim and that we cannot trust them. What I do agree with, though, is that if any are under suspicion for similar reasons as what this guy was, then it's time to reign them in to prevent anything like this from happening again. If we have people under suspicion, or know they are part of a larger network know to work against us, then let's close the loop and take them down now.

We can detain people for qute a while based on conducting investigations although we would have to press charges in some form in a reasonable time to satisfy legal requirements. The important thing, though, is to prevent similar tragedies. I'm willing to stretch the law to it's limits to prevent attacks upon our citizens or military but I"m very hesitant to out and out break it. Doing so opens up the possibility that it could later happen to anyone.

If we need to harden our stance against muslims who we suspect as being part of networks for the purpose of attacking us, I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with hardening our stance against someone who simpy happens to be muslim though. It's sometimes a subtle difference, but one that I think is important. Being able to clearly define that difference is actually what separates us from being wise and being just another police state. There has to be some kind of starting point where we can feel free to act to prevent things like this from happening, that much is just common sense, but where to start?

In this case, it appears we already had a good starting point and had him under investigations. If standing up and giving a Power Point presentation clearly outlining his subversive views wasn't enough to take him down and do something about him, then I guess I don't know what is. People knew about him yet sent him forward toward a war anyway. In that sense, we dropped the ball. Clearly, he should not have been allowed to get to the point that he did.

I'm not blaming us for him killing people, because the decision to pull a triggers always rests in the person pulling it. It's his fault, not anyone elses. Nothing can clear him of that and I hope he wiggles at the end of a rope for his decision. However, if we had solid evidence that he would be an issue, we should have acted a long time ago. If we have solid evidence, or even somewhat solid leads, then I agree that we should step in and act to prevent terrorist attacks, such as this one in Texas.

Throughout my posts, I think people are confusing what I'm saying. Either that, or I'm not being clear enough. I'm no bleeding heart for these people. In fact, I'd be happy to watch their heart bleed after taking a bullet straight to it. But, I'm not going to be the one to pull the trigger on them unless we have something solid to work on.

I'm sorry, but simply being muslim is not enough for me. There has to be something else to it before I'm willing to take away their rights as Americans. I've worked with too many who actually are on our side in this to take the view that being muslim automatically makes them follow the twisted teachings of the radical terrorists who share their religion, or whatever it is that is islam. That's not to say that millions of muslims do not share these twisted views, because many do. It's only to say I need something more than someone simply being muslim before I act due to my experiences.

That is the meat of my point. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough before hand?

Thanks :blink:

t.

PS-

This is a problem no one wants to address. You are in a room with two guys, and you know one of them wants to kill you and your family, but don't know which one wants to do it, can you afford to give either man the benefit of the doubt? Until you have managed to figure out which one is after you, both are suspect.

In this case, I'll feel justified in hobbling both :emot-hug:

We get little to no help from the greater worldwide Muslim community. They refuse to apprehend, try and execute terrorists in their own countries. They do little to inform us of cells in our country, due in part to the fact, that these nations (many of whom are considered "moderate") are actually bankrolling the terrorists.

We don't have to wait on any foreign entity to act in the defense of our citizens. Personally, we should be a little more straight forward when it comes to pointing these thing out at the international level. Bush did it with his "Axis of Evil" speech, and I thought it was just the right thing to do. Bush put the spotlight on some of these rats yet the world recoiled and brushed him off. It's not until they get hit at home before they understand the nature of this mess.

Recently, Sec of State Clinton was over there basically calling Iran out on their nuclear weapons program. The trouble is the rest of the world is not willing to put their selves on the hot seat and stand with us. I fully supported Bush fighting terrorists on out own. We begged the rest of the world to help us in numerous UN speeches, but the rest of the world (for the most part) sat on their hands. Fine, get out of the way and we will deal with it.

So that leaves it to us to either weed out the bad seed or take our chances and wait until a terrorist cell detonates a suitcase nuke in New York, DC or LA and we have to lose millions of lives just because some people were more concerned about protecting the freedom of the terrorists, than they were in protecting the lives of their fellow Americans.

Again, we don't have to wait around for something to happen, and I'm not advocating that. We can follow leads, investigate, gather intelligence, and act to prevent such things from happening. If they are a terrorist, no one has any problem taking their rights away and treating them accordingly. In my opinion, if you are actively working to harm the US, you should be stripped of the rights you enjoy as a US citizen and a new set of rules should apply. That should be the standard, no matter who you are or what your religion is. If you are taking up arms against it, you shouldn't be able to continue to enjoy It's freedoms.

Have a good day. :emot-pray:

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Hey, CNN, MSNBC, NEW YAWK TIMES, suppose, let's just suppose, that an evangelical Christian had shot up a room jammed with unarmed followers of polygamist WarLord Muhammad while yelling "Jesus Christ is my Lord & Savior!". Just suppose he had a fascination with Old Testament accounts of how Jehovah smote his followers' enemies. Plus his clergy had advocated a new Crusade to eliminate the Holy Land of all non-Christians. And to boot, he had attended & graduated from a survivalist camp for a cultish group of white supremacists who said they were obeying a heavenly vision. QUESTION FOR CNN, MSNBC, NEW YAWK TIMES who strive now to overlook Hasan's intense connections with Muslim Jihadism, Wouldn't you all be first in line on the very day of the Hasan massacre to roundly & soundly denounce Evangelical Christianity as inherently violent & that something be done immediately to rein in these hateful Christian 'dogs of war' bent on the destruction of innocent Muslim Jihadists? Hail, Thou Grim Plague of UltraLibDem Political-Korrectness Junkies of the Far-Left News Media Elite! Pray tell, who put all that benzedrine in your Mrs. Murphy's Ovaltine? Methinks it was the very King of Scotland, was it not, who said in MacBeth, "A tale told by an idiot full of sound & fury signifying nothing." My personal sum-up of that news media elite troika re the Muslim Hasan murderous rampage. "Allahu Akbar!"indeed. :noidea:

God Bless America!

Eternal Vigilance Is The Price Of Liberty!

Sarah Palin For U.S. President in 2012! :)

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Hey, CNN, MSNBC, NEW YAWK TIMES, suppose, let's just suppose, that an evangelical Christian had shot up a room jammed with unarmed followers of polygamist WarLord Muhammad while yelling "Jesus Christ is my Lord & Savior!". Just suppose he had a fascination with Old Testament accounts of how Jehovah smote his followers' enemies. Plus his clergy had advocated a new Crusade to eliminate the Holy Land of all non-Christians. And to boot, he had attended & graduated from a survivalist camp for a cultish group of white supremacists who said they were obeying a heavenly vision. QUESTION FOR CNN, MSNBC, NEW YAWK TIMES who strive now to overlook Hasan's intense connections with Muslim Jihadism, Wouldn't you all be first in line on the very day of the Hasan massacre to roundly & soundly denounce Evangelical Christianity as inherently violent & that something be done immediately to rein in these hateful Christian 'dogs of war' bent on the destruction of innocent Muslim Jihadists? Hail, Thou Grim Plague of UltraLibDem Political-Korrectness Junkies of the Far-Left News Media Elite! Pray tell, who put all that benzedrine in your Mrs. Murphy's Ovaltine? Methinks it was the very King of Scotland, was it not, who said in MacBeth, "A tale told by an idiot full of sound & fury signifying nothing." My personal sum-up of that news media elite troika re the Muslim Hasan murderous rampage. "Allahu Akbar!"indeed. :noidea:

God Bless America!

Eternal Vigilance Is The Price Of Liberty!

Sarah Palin For U.S. President in 2012! :)

The only problem I have with what you say is the fact that CNN, MSNBC, ABC and CBS are all OVER the connection to radical islamist clerics. Don't know about the N.Y. Times.

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They finally got there? Excellent! After all, as more info started flowing, they'd find it most difficult to stay holed-up. But they sure do strive to protect Islam - and at the least cover its tracks for as long as possible - and its varied mass-homicide bombers & shooters!

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They finally got there? Excellent! After all, as more info started flowing, they'd find it most difficult to stay holed-up. But they sure do strive to protect Islam - and at the least cover its tracks for as long as possible - and its varied mass-homicide bombers & shooters!

Truthfully...I don't watch ABC, MSNBC or CBS except very infrequently so I can't comment on them...but CNN regularly reports on instances of islamic extremism, terrorism and the people responsible for these things. Why do you say they're trying to cover tracks? I think you're listening to someone else's opinion instead of forming your own. Do you actually watch those news channels yourself?

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I think every news outlet in our country was covering this as it unfolded. There has been no attempt to cover up the tragedy.

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I think every news outlet in our country was covering this as it unfolded. There has been no attempt to cover up the tragedy.

No, there hasn't, but that doesn't stop the fringe blogs from saying it.

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The only problem I have with what you say is the fact that CNN, MSNBC, ABC and CBS are all OVER the connection to radical islamist clerics. Don't know about the N.Y. Times.

Are they calling this an act of terror, or are they blaming the guy's mental problems?

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ted is the most reasonable person in this whole thread. A font of wisdom he.

Problem being (in America) is that if you intern or jail Muslims simply because they are Muslim, or any religious group or ethnicity because of their religion, you immediately lose the status of being a Democracy that protects the rights and freedoms of all.

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