Church Gimmick Fills Pews

[Believer1997]

I've been to all kinds of churches before - from wooden country churches that seat about 50 to some beautiful cathedrals. I also enjoy classical music and traditional services - I feel closer to God when I am in peaceful surroundings. Contemporary is great if that is what makes one happy and close to God. He must be at the center of all worship...

But he is not at the center of worship if we are concerned with what makes us happy and FEEL close to God.

How about we worship him. I really do enjoy rock music but when I go to a church that plays this kind of music I find myself not worshipping him but listening to the music. It's a concert and not a worship service. Do you understand what I mean? The hymns actually contain doctrine and scripture. I (and I am speaking for myself here) can't worship God in a church like this .

He is the center and because He is - I feel happy and my heart and spirit are full... Because He is the center and not the windows, draperies, pews, clothing or even music ... He fills my spirit and soul. I have prayed in some of the most beautiful churches in the world - He is with me.

[CSLewis]

I've been to all kinds of churches before - from wooden country churches that seat about 50 to some beautiful cathedrals. I also enjoy classical music and traditional services - I feel closer to God when I am in peaceful surroundings. Contemporary is great if that is what makes one happy and close to God. He must be at the center of all worship...

But he is not at the center of worship if we are concerned with what makes us happy and FEEL close to God.

How about we worship him. I really do enjoy rock music but when I go to a church that plays this kind of music I find myself not worshipping him but listening to the music. It's a concert and not a worship service. Do you understand what I mean? The hymns actually contain doctrine and scripture. I (and I am speaking for myself here) can't worship God in a church like this .

He is the center and because He is - I feel happy and my heart and spirit are full... Because He is the center and not the windows, draperies, pews, clothing or even music ... He fills my spirit and soul. I have prayed in some of the most beautiful churches in the world - He is with me.

Ok now that makes sense - happiness follows - I got you and agree.

Peace

[Believer1997]

I've been to all kinds of churches before - from wooden country churches that seat about 50 to some beautiful cathedrals. I also enjoy classical music and traditional services - I feel closer to God when I am in peaceful surroundings. Contemporary is great if that is what makes one happy and close to God. He must be at the center of all worship...

But he is not at the center of worship if we are concerned with what makes us happy and FEEL close to God.

How about we worship him. I really do enjoy rock music but when I go to a church that plays this kind of music I find myself not worshipping him but listening to the music. It's a concert and not a worship service. Do you understand what I mean? The hymns actually contain doctrine and scripture. I (and I am speaking for myself here) can't worship God in a church like this .

He is the center and because He is - I feel happy and my heart and spirit are full... Because He is the center and not the windows, draperies, pews, clothing or even music ... He fills my spirit and soul. I have prayed in some of the most beautiful churches in the world - He is with me.

Ok now that makes sense - happiness follows - I got you and agree.

Peace

[OneLight]

The keg of beer idea bears no relation whatsoever to what this Pastor appears to be attempting to initiate through his gimmick...a few years down the line, he might well look back at what he is doing now, and shake his head with a smile on his face, and say to himself before the L-rd...'how could I be so dumb'...and I expect many of us can empathize with this sort of thinking...its called 'growing in grace' or 'maturing'.

The discussion on this thread is quite revealing, there is so much negativity that is speculative, baseless and in my opinion self-righteously judgmental...which probably needs to be addressed alot more than the Pastor.

Thoughtfully....Botz

The Pastor has no idea what the person will do with the money. It could very well be someone with a drug problem or it could be a single mom who needed rent money. He is gambling to say the least on the good nature of the person receiving the cash, so in some cases, it may as well be beer. That was the point of using the keg.

If the Pastor in question is not mature enough to make mature decisions, should he be behind the pulpit in the first place? He should of studies these scripture before becoming a Pastor.

2 Peter 1:5-11

Fruitful Growth in the Faith

But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 3:1-7

Qualifications of Overseers

This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

As for judging, we are told to test every spirit and the spirit that would do this is not of the Lord,as far as I can see through scripture. We are also told to judge those within the family and if we find a brother or sister in sin, to bring them back could save their life.

I guess we should just bury our heads in the sand and let God work it out then?

[Botz]

The keg of beer idea bears no relation whatsoever to what this Pastor appears to be attempting to initiate through his gimmick...a few years down the line, he might well look back at what he is doing now, and shake his head with a smile on his face, and say to himself before the L-rd...'how could I be so dumb'...and I expect many of us can empathize with this sort of thinking...its called 'growing in grace' or 'maturing'.

The discussion on this thread is quite revealing, there is so much negativity that is speculative, baseless and in my opinion self-righteously judgmental...which probably needs to be addressed alot more than the Pastor.

Thoughtfully....Botz

The Pastor has no idea what the person will do with the money. It could very well be someone with a drug problem or it could be a single mom who needed rent money. He is gambling to say the least on the good nature of the person receiving the cash, so in some cases, it may as well be beer. That was the point of using the keg.

If the Pastor in question is not mature enough to make mature decisions, should he be behind the pulpit in the first place? He should of studies these scripture before becoming a Pastor.

2 Peter 1:5-11

Fruitful Growth in the Faith

But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 3:1-7

Qualifications of Overseers

This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

As for judging, we are told to test every spirit and the spirit that would do this is not of the Lord,as far as I can see through scripture. We are also told to judge those within the family and if we find a brother or sister in sin, to bring them back could save their life.

I guess we should just bury our heads in the sand and let God work it out then?

I'm sorry bro, but you are just continuing on with more speculation about this Pastor...you don't like the way he operates on this occassion, you insinuate he is not mature and should study more of the Bible, you believe he is operating out of another spirit... all of this and some, just from that single newspaper cutting.

If I was part of his congregation, or in fellowship with him, and I could see that what he was doing was actually causing a lot of people a great deal of associated problems, and that it was really more in line with the world than with Scripture...then I would approach him, and explain my concerns....Right now I can see all sorts of possibilities, both good and bad, but there are far more pressing concerns to me than jumping on the Christian band-wagon and slagging this man off when I do not have to.

No!... we don't just bury our head in the sand on issues that we think are important, and I'm sure you know this....In this particular instance I just don't see things as clear-cut as you and others seem to see them, and although his gimmick is not something I would ever do, or even suggest, I will not condemn what he appears to be attempting. We are to judge righteously...I can't do that when there is such limited information.

In Messiah. Botz

[OneLight]

The keg of beer idea bears no relation whatsoever to what this Pastor appears to be attempting to initiate through his gimmick...a few years down the line, he might well look back at what he is doing now, and shake his head with a smile on his face, and say to himself before the L-rd...'how could I be so dumb'...and I expect many of us can empathize with this sort of thinking...its called 'growing in grace' or 'maturing'.

The discussion on this thread is quite revealing, there is so much negativity that is speculative, baseless and in my opinion self-righteously judgmental...which probably needs to be addressed alot more than the Pastor.

Thoughtfully....Botz

The Pastor has no idea what the person will do with the money. It could very well be someone with a drug problem or it could be a single mom who needed rent money. He is gambling to say the least on the good nature of the person receiving the cash, so in some cases, it may as well be beer. That was the point of using the keg.

If the Pastor in question is not mature enough to make mature decisions, should he be behind the pulpit in the first place? He should of studies these scripture before becoming a Pastor.

2 Peter 1:5-11

Fruitful Growth in the Faith

But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 3:1-7

Qualifications of Overseers

This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

As for judging, we are told to test every spirit and the spirit that would do this is not of the Lord,as far as I can see through scripture. We are also told to judge those within the family and if we find a brother or sister in sin, to bring them back could save their life.

I guess we should just bury our heads in the sand and let God work it out then?

I'm sorry bro, but you are just continuing on with more speculation about this Pastor...you don't like the way he operates on this occassion, you insinuate he is not mature and should study more of the Bible, you believe he is operating out of another spirit... all of this and some, just from that single newspaper cutting.

If I was part of his congregation, or in fellowship with him, and I could see that what he was doing was actually causing a lot of people a great deal of associated problems, and that it was really more in line with the world than with Scripture...then I would approach him, and explain my concerns....Right now I can see all sorts of possibilities, both good and bad, but there are far more pressing concerns to me than jumping on the Christian band-wagon and slagging this man off when I do not have to.

No!... we don't just bury our head in the sand on issues that we think are important, and I'm sure you know this....In this particular instance I just don't see things as clear-cut as you and others seem to see them, and although his gimmick is not something I would ever do, or even suggest, I will not condemn what he appears to be attempting. We are to judge righteously...I can't do that when there is such limited information.

In Messiah. Botz

Don't be sorry, Botz, we just see this differently. I don't think it should be allowed, as you agreed, and am saying so. I will always stand up for what I think is right. Money changers, or bankers, should not be included in temples, or churches. They have their own offices to conduct their business in. I also believe that the Pastor can do better with his money then just pull a name out of a hat, so to say. Maybe his church is rich enough that they already help all those who are in need?

As for my comments about immaturity, I took your lead on that statement.

[Fez]

Botz, you say we can't judge righteously because there is limited information.

I tend to disagree. How much more information do we need? The man is promoting gambling in a church. Is this right or is it wrong? That is the essence of the decision for me. And I believe that gambling in a church is wrong, morally and scripturally. I base my decision on that. As to judging, I don't judge him, I just think he is misguided. Jesus is the only judge.

Blessings

[Botz]

Botz, you say we can't judge righteously because there is limited information.

I tend to disagree. How much more information do we need? The man is promoting gambling in a church. Is this right or is it wrong? That is the essence of the decision for me. And I believe that gambling in a church is wrong, morally and scripturally. I base my decision on that. As to judging, I don't judge him, I just think he is misguided. Jesus is the only judge.

Blessings

Mate...this thread can run and run it seems. I understand your concern and that of Onelight, Nikki and others...I don't really see giving away money as promoting gambling...it isn't habit forming, and no one who comes there is going to have spent their weeks wages on some frivolous pleasure.

He may well be wrong in what he is attempting and the way he is going about it...you can see it clearly already and base your comments on that, whereas I can't, and most of what has been levelled against this man is unfounded, and I will not add my voice to that....but I will be interested to see how this gimmick of his pans out in the end, and whether or not it really achieved any lasting benefits.

[Axxman]

You know, Axx... I've never looked at things this way - but I think you may be right. At the onset of this thread, I thought that this church was really all wrong - but maybe the pastor has been led to do this... and I think people in his church are being blessed. My initial response was that this was wrong and just sad -but in these times, maybe this is what this pastor's flock needed. Our church also does not broadcast the needs of someone unless they expressly wish it to be announced. There are many people who are receiving assistance that have never done so before. Sign of the times, I guess.

Our pastor says that he learned a long time ago that when someone has a need in the church, God has usually given somebody else the ability or the desire to help. He says that most of the time people arent sure who, or when, or how they are being led to help. This way it becomes clear. Either way, as long as people are being blessed by their church family, I think its a good thing...in the open or with discretion.

One caveat...if this church was advertising "Come to church for a chance to win..." I'd be right with you guys in condemning it. That is totally not the idea that I got from reading the article though, so I'm with them.

[Axxman]

Axxman That is absurd. God is not concerned with happiness. He is concerned

with holiness.

Bro...God can be concerned with more than one thing at a time...

How about we worship him. I really do enjoy rock music but when I go to a church that plays this kind of music I find myself not worshipping him but listening to the music. It's a concert and not a worship service. Do you understand what I mean? The hymns actually contain doctrine and scripture. I (and I am speaking for myself here) can't worship God in a church like this .

First, not all hymns contain doctrine and scripture...neither does all contemporary church music. Some hymns are really good, some contemporary worship is really good. Quite often the music itself (not just the lyric) is a form of worship too. I have often had moments during which a really good guitar riff has uplifted me, and called me to worship, as much as the sound of the wondrous sound of the pipe organ at the Trier Cathedral in Germany. I could say the same of percussion instruments and wind instruments, and even the human voice. I truly believe thats what God intended.

Psalm 150

Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,

praise him with the harp and lyre,

praise him with tambourine and dancing,

praise him with the strings and flute,

praise him with the clash of cymbals,

praise him with resounding cymbals.

Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.

Praise the LORD.

To each his own, we must all worship God in our own way. But you shouldn't condemn or judge people for doing what what the bible has explicitly approved.