Bold Believer Posted November 10, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Share Posted November 10, 2009 The Feast of Tabernacles would have been in what we Gentiles call September/October, the Hebrew month of Tishri. The conditions listed in the Gospels would have been present (sheep in the fields and being watched by shepherds, indicating mild weather) The Feast itself is indicative of God coming to dwell in tabernacles, temporary living quarters (which of course parallels the human body) which eventually pass away. John used the term when he wrote that Jesus came to tabernacle amongst us, full of grace and truth. Obviously, December 25 is a former pagan holiday of the god Saturn. Why should we celebrate on a date which was meant to celebrate a pagan god? More obviously, the date has become a time not of remembrance that Christ Jesus came into the world, but that we need to spend beaucoup buckaroos on the latest techno-mess. I think there would be a good case for Believers to at least consider celebrating in September (about Sept 15 or so). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I think the problem would be finding a day that wasn't dedicated to someone's pagan god. Everything you say is true, but since celebrating the birth of Jesus is not a commandment, and really more of a tradition, the day is not that important. consider this: The Passover Lamb was killed in the Spring during the same season that the Egyptians celebrated an ancient lamb festival. That does not make Passover pagan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted November 10, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted November 10, 2009 I think the problem would be finding a day that wasn't dedicated to someone's pagan god. Everything you say is true, but since celebrating the birth of Jesus is not a commandment, and really more of a tradition, the day is not that important. consider this: The Passover Lamb was killed in the Spring during the same season that the Egyptians celebrated an ancient lamb festival. That does not make Passover pagan. Agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Believer1997 Posted November 10, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 66 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,363 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 119 Days Won: 9 Joined: 11/07/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted November 10, 2009 I try to celebrate every day ... He has given me cause to celebrate each and every one of them... it matters not whether it is Aug. 1, Feb.27 or Dec. 25 - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted November 10, 2009 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,260 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,988 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted November 10, 2009 I've had this for a really long time and don't remember where I got it. You can google several sites it's on, but I've never been able to find who origionally wrote it. I do have Dr. Martin's book and he goes to great lentghs to show why Herod died in 1BC. The world was transfixed by the year 2000--worried about the'Y2K' bug in computers, millennial madness in cult groups, political union in Europe, and a proposal to make Mary "co-redemptrix" in the Catholic Church. While Rome flirted with blasphemy, few realized that the true 2000th lunar anniversary of the birth of Jesus was August 22, 1998, or on September 11, 1998 by the solar calendar dating we now use. Many may live to see the consequences of the anniversary, if it foreshadowed a coming fake Christ. Or at the least, there were dozens of lunatics eager to take advantage of the year 2000 hysteria to get the attention of the gullible. Yet the 2000th anniversary of the Nativity actually came 475 days before year 2000 began. The correct anniversary date was about sundown, Jerusalem time, the end of the Sabbath, Saturday August 22, 1998. How can we know the exact day--and nearly the hour--of the birth of Jesus? Simple arithmetic. A child could have done it, if only the basic assumptions had been correct. But they weren't. In the 19th century, critical scholars made a crucial decision to reject a total lunar eclipse in January 1 BC and to accept instead one in March 4 BC, as the chronological cornerstone for dating the death of Herod the Great, and thereby, the possible birth years for Jesus. By so doing, the critics could argue Jesus had to born before 4 BC, contradicting Luke, who tied Jesus' 30th year to the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar, 27-28 AD. Luke effectively placed the birth in 3 BC, as did many of the early church fathers. Ironically, even the date used by the Pope during the Christmas Eve midnight mass ritual is itself consistent with the last half of 3 BC. The dirty little secret is that virtually all the available evidence has always pointed at the harvest period of 3 BC as the focal point of the Nativity--including the possibility of a late summer birth. By rejecting Luke, scholars also threw out the date of the birth Luke gives in his Gospel. In his second chapter, Luke tells what happened the day Mary came to the Temple for purification 40 days after the birth of Jesus. All one has to know is what day this was. And Luke plainly names the day. In fact, he includes three statements identifying the day. So what day was this? Yom Kippur. The Day of Atonement. The 10th day of the seventh month of the Hebrew calendar. In Luke's time, Yom Kippur was called three things: The day of the "Fast," the day of the "Purification, "and the day of "Redemption." Luke uses all three to identify the day Jesus was brought to the Temple. And he even quotes the Torah rule that mandates the 40-day period for the mother to wait after the child's birth [Lk 2:22-38]. And if there were any doubt that it was Yom Kippur, Luke tells of a woman named Anna who had been in the Temple for a "night and day" without leaving. There was ONLY ONE DAY A YEAR when a person could pray overnight in the Temple: Yom Kippur. All other days, the Temple was locked at sundown. This shows the 40th day of Mary's Purification had begun at the end of Yom Kippur, the end of the 10th day of the 7th month, because we know the Purification was done at the earliest opportunity--at the beginning of the 40th day after birth. And since the 6th month normally had only 29 days, simple arithmetic shows Mary's 39 days of Purification had to have begun around sundown on the 1st day of the 6th month, called Elul. This was the night of the first sighting of the new moon of Elul. The Magi in Babylon were recording this sunset sliver of the new moon on a clay tablet. The cuneiform tablet the Magi made at that hour 2000 years ago, along with thousands of others from Babylon, resides in the British Museum. It is possible that this clay tablet was inscribed by one of the famous Magi who later brought a strange set of gifts to Bethlehem. So the new moon seen by the Magi in Babylon at the very moment of Jesus being born is recorded on one of the tablets now in London. Cuneiform scholars have identified the date on this tablet as equivalent to September, 11, 3 BC. The Hebrew lunar calendar dates vary with respect to our solar calendar. So the 1st of Elul was September 11th in 3 BC, but began on August 22 in 1998. The same was true in the days of the early church, of course. In a given year, the 1st of Elul could have fallen on September 8th, for example. This may solve another ancient mystery. No one seems to know how Rome came to honor September 8th as the birthday of Mary. There is no Biblical, historical, or church tradition to explain it. It just emerges out of nowhere. Rome keeps the 8th of December as the Feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary [ie. conceived without original sin]. It is a holy day of obligation for all Catholics to attend Mass. This feast is clearly based upon September 8th also, and mortal sin is attached to the failure of a Catholic to observe it, yet the origins of these dates are unknown. On the other hand, we can now see that if Jesus were born on September 11th as Luke indicates, then Jesus would have been conceived around December 8th in 4 BC. The now mysterious Mary dates fit Jesus quite well. How might this have happened? In the late 4th century, in early 380 AD, Pope Damasus I was endeavoring to force all Christians in the Roman Empire to yield to his authority. He got the Emperor to issue an edict requiring them to practice the religion of Rome. We know that it is about this time the Christmas midnight Mass was first celebrated and December 25th first identified as a Catholic holy day. It is said Damasus was seeking to lure the people away from pagan rites honoring the birth of the sun god at midnight by compelling Catholic attendance at a memorial in honor of Christ's death, ie the Mass. The people confused this Mass with the pagan solar birth rituals conducted at that same time. Gradually, the Christ-Mass became associated with the Nativity. Meanwhile, the true feast around September 8th, which naturally honored Mary in giving birth to Jesus, was converted into a day commemorating her own birth, and an old holyday honoring the conception of Jesus was converted into a day commemorating the conception of Mary on December 8th. Strangely, there is still widespread belief among non-Catholics that this is the day Jesus was conceived--a possible lingering remembrance of the original meaning of this date. We can also tell from Luke's Gospel that Jesus had been born in early evening, for Luke says the shepherds were keeping watch by night, but still had time to go into town and tell the people what they had seen earlier that evening. People rose early with the sun in those days, and would have been asleep by 9 or 10 pm. Therefore, the birth had taken place no later than 8 pm, and probably before 7 pm. Yet Luke says it happened at night, which means after sunset--surely after 6 pm in September. Hence, it follows that Jesus was born within a few minutes of 6:30-7:30 pm on the evening of September 11th, 3 BC. A confirmation of this time is in the book of Revelation. Historian Ernest L. Martin consulted NASA lunar-phase tables and found the image of the heavens in Revelation 12 showed where the sun and the moon were, relative to Virgo, at the time Jesus was born, pin-pointing sunset of September 11th of 3 BC. It seems the moon moves so quickly it is "beneath the feet" of Virgo only a few hours every month. Moreover, the moon comes within two lunar diameters of Virgo's feet at the time of a new moon but once in 30 years. The only such occurrence any time near the birth of Jesus was on September 11th, 3 BC. Most previous attempts at determining the birth time were based upon astrology and dating the Star of Bethlehem. No one considered 3 BC because that year had erroneously been assumed to follow Herod's death. However, Dr. Martin has proven that Herod did not die in 4 BC, but in 1 BC. Scholars are now generally accepting the new chronology for Herod, and this in turn has allowed the confirmation of the New Testament date for the birth of Jesus. Unfortunately, many churches continue to promote the critics' errors and paganized traditions about the Nativity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Gareth Posted November 10, 2009 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 540 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/11/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/26/1980 Share Posted November 10, 2009 The Feast of Tabernacles would have been in what we Gentiles call September/October, the Hebrew month of Tishri. The conditions listed in the Gospels would have been present (sheep in the fields and being watched by shepherds, indicating mild weather) The Feast itself is indicative of God coming to dwell in tabernacles, temporary living quarters (which of course parallels the human body) which eventually pass away. John used the term when he wrote that Jesus came to tabernacle amongst us, full of grace and truth. Obviously, December 25 is a former pagan holiday of the god Saturn. Why should we celebrate on a date which was meant to celebrate a pagan god? More obviously, the date has become a time not of remembrance that Christ Jesus came into the world, but that we need to spend beaucoup buckaroos on the latest techno-mess. I think there would be a good case for Believers to at least consider celebrating in September (about Sept 15 or so). The reason to celebrate on this day was because it was a pagan holiday. It was part of the early churches attempt to stop pagan worship by using the day as a time to worship the coming of the true savior, Jesus Christ, kind of like celebrating patriot day on Sept 11, to show we won't be backed down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted November 11, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.09 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted November 11, 2009 I think we won't know for sure the date of Jesus' birth until He returns and tells us. Until then, why not just celebrate that He was born and not when? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted November 11, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted November 11, 2009 The third month of the Jewish calendar is called Kislev. It starts any where from mid-November to early December. Hannukka falls on the 25th day of this month. So when you see Hannukka (Dec. 12th this year) on your calendar you know that it's Kislev. I agree with Morning glory I agree also with Believer1997 We can see from this that Jesus was born in the fall of the year which was from Mid-November to early December. Many say that Jesus birth was in the winter time which is not true. Even on our calendar December is in the fall. Colossians 2:16-17--Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: vs 17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. For unto us a Saviour was born - Amen oc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted November 11, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Ah - but what we miss out on is the Lord's creativity and planning. The death and resurrection of our Lord and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit perfectly line up with the Spring feasts. That is without question. When we see our Lord's birth fitting in with the Fall feasts, we can say, "Hey, look how God fulfilled prophecy!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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