Dome of the Rock: anti-Christian

[other one]

I can show you several chruches that will say Yes to that question..

That's what I thought. But the people in those churches don't see it that way. Just like they'll never admit to their other idolatries.

sssoooooo very true

[nebula]

Do Jews and Muslims worship the same God?

Muslims claim the birthright of Abraham went to Ishmael. The Jews (and Christians) claim the birthright went to Isaac. The Koran even states that it was Ishmael whom Abraham placed upon the altar - not Isaac.

So, here already we have a lie of Satan in the doctrine of the Koran. Take out Isaac as the child of promise, and you take out a key Christian principle (referred to in Romans 9 and Galatians 4).

Now, I'll admit I'm not a Koran expert, but how does the Koran describe God. Does it even refer to Him as father? Does the Koran lay out a plan of redemption? Is God - "Allah" - described as both righteous and merciful? Does Allah dispense both judment and grace?

Exodus 34

6 Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth;

7 who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."

What proclomation of the Lord is there in the Koran?

Did Allah even make a covenant with his people in the Koran?

What does the Koran say about sin? How does the Koran lay out the plan for redemption and cleansing from sin?

In the Old Testament, it says:

Leviticus 17

11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.

What does the Koran say about atonement?

********

Now to go even deeper, I need to also ask you this.

Who revealed God (Allah) to Mohammed, the founder of the Islamic religion?

Do you believe the "Gabriel" sent to Mohammed was the Holy Spirit (as I've heard one Muslim argue), was sent from God the Father, or was a messenger of Satan in disguise?

[nebula]

Judaism verses Christianity.

Well, to tackle this one, we need a basis of understanding.

What do you believe about the Trinity? Are they "one" or separate entities acting together - or are they somehow both?

Also, read Romans 10 & 11 with this debate in mind.

[other one]

John 8:39-47

39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me; for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies. 45 "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God." 

NASB

Somehow I just don't see the sons of Satan worshiping the Father. I also don't see the Nation of Islam worshiping the Father. Neither of them have any resemblance to His teachings, nor the attitude of Abraham himself.

They are both of their father and have been for many many generations.

I don't know about the priesthood of the Jews of today, but if they are still teaching the same things they were in the days of Christ when he was on earth, then I would have the same opinion of them that Jesus had when he was here the first time.

It matters not wether or not they think they worship the same God (I wish we could stop using that word) if they don't have Jesus. If they don't have Jesus.... they don't have the Father, so they can't possibly be worshiping the Father of Christ.

Sam

[Guest shiloh357]

(Quote from Charlie) While we may not belive Muslims worship the same God as us anymore than we believe those who follow Judaism worship the same God as us,...

QUOTE

( Also from Charlie)I don't know much about the God the Muslims worship but I'm pretty sure that this is also the Father God of our Old Testament,

Quote by Shiloh, who quote me twice above

So which of the above statments do you really believe, since you contradicted yourself? So do you think or not think that Muslims worship the same God as us? Your position seem to keep changing as seen above.

I didn't contradict myself in my brain even if you'd like to think I did in writing. I believe the Muslims (of arab race) and the Jews (of Jewish race) are both descended from Abraham. I believe Muslims (religious) and Jews (religious) both worship, in vein, the God that Abraham worshipped, the Father God of our OT. That would be the Father part of our Trinity. We worship Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the Father....the trinity. That's what I was trying to convey in my posts. I reread it and to say I contradicted myself you'd have to be looking to "pick it apart" which I think you did Shiloh. I don't see a contradiction there in my words at all, even though you're attempting to create one.

Show where it says that Jews and Christians worship different Gods. Provide Scripture.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [[but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

www.blueletterbible.com

So if you refuse to read them, how do you know they are wrong?

If I read this "information" disputing the bloodline of current day Jews (and there's plenty of this "info" out there) you'd say that it's hogwash. But, you'd insist that any "information" you'd provide, that says the arabs of today are not of the bloodline of Ishmael, is true. Who knows, maybe there's something to both claims and maybe I should read both claims. I'll think about it.

Because the Jews have an incomplete picture of God - how does that make them worship a false God? I mean, to call one "person" of the Trinity a false God is to call them all false.

You are doing that to Muslims? Let's phrase it this way, how bout we say both are practicing a false religion and are going to hell without the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Let's also be fair and not make excuses for one group when we're not willing to make excuses for the other. Let's say that Muslims as well as Jews (religious) have an incomplete picture of God. I'm gonna be brutally honest here people. If you all felt the same kind of empathy with Muslims that you feel with Jews you'd all be bending over backwards saying "Muslims woship the same God as us". Sorry, Neb. I disagree with your last statement. I don't deny Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit or the Father.

Would you all prefer that instead of summarizing my thoughts by saying that the Muslims and Jews do not worship the same God as Christians, that I say instead Muslims (Islam) and Jews (Judaism) are anti-christ? If one is inclined to be nit-picky that would probably be a more accurate statement.

btw- my apologies to the original poster for causing this thread to get off topic. It certainly wasn't my intention.

Charlie, just answer the question... Do you believe that Muslims worship the same God as Christians? It a simple question.

BTW the verses you provide do not prove that unbelieving Jews worship another God other than YHWH. They may not have a saving relationship with Him, but they are not worshipping someone/something else.

If I read this "information" disputing the bloodline of current day Jews (and there's plenty of this "info" out there) you'd say that it's hogwash.

No I would not. I would read it, then demolish it with truth, fact, history, and logic.

[other one]

nebula,Aug 1 2004, 06:41 PM Judaism verses Christianity.

Well, to tackle this one, we need a basis of understanding.

What do you believe about the Trinity? Are they "one" or separate entities acting together - or are they somehow both?

Also, read Romans 10 & 11 with this debate in mind.

Exod 24 10Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet (15) there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.

John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, ' AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.

Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from Him.

So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of, is not what that the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament.

Looking further:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life and the life was the light of men.

John 1:9 There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world and the world was made through Him and the world did not know Him.

It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament days. Jesus in this form was with the Father from the beginning.

It seems to me that the people of the old testament days were not aware of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he existed in before he became flesh.

Further:

Philippians 2:5+ Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with god a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the old testament times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the Father on earth.

Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the fleshly body.

[QUOTE]

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me;

John 17:20 Jesus prayed " I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their work: that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me"

[nebula]

Sam -

I've heard this argument before - that Jesus is the one who interacted with man throughout the Old Testament.

Thank-you for bringing this point forward and explaining it so well!

[Guest charlie]

Charlie, just answer the question... Do you believe that Muslims worship the same God as Christians? It a simple question.

No absolutely not! I do not believe that Muslims worship the same God as Christians. I was clear on that in my previous posts Shiloh, you're just trying to be combative with me because you don't like my opinions.

The diety that is central to the Islamic faith is not the God of the Old Testament.

Okay, I'll buy that. I've never read the Koran nor have I ever had a desire to. What I gave you was my perception of who I thought they were referring to. Either way Islam and Judaism are both anti-christ.

Like Other One said, I wish we could stop using the word God if it doesn't include Jesus.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

[Guest charlie]

Okay