If Baptism is required for salvation

[OneLight]

For days we butted heads because you were adding works to salvation. First you would say that one needed to be baptized, then you would say that the Cross was enough. Maybe you should reread your posts over the past week ...

But works of God do come before salvation - this is what I have always maintained. That is not adding works of merit to salvation - that is obedience to God's commands.

Care to tell me what you are specifically talking about so this does not spiral into another long discussion. God is always working before, during and after salvation, unless you are talking what we do in Him.

You can review my post #31. Any questions let me know.

No, I have nothing against what you have posted. To say it with few words, do we agree ?

Matthew 7:21

Not everyone who says to Me,

[Guest shiloh357]

The problem with arguing that baptism is required for salvation is that it is based on isolated verses and not on actuall doctrinal teaching, and there is a difference. The strength of a doctrine is based on how it taught in Scripture and there is no doctrinal presentation of baptism as a requirement for salvation.

Jesus said those who believe and are baptized will be saved. Baptism is an act of obedience as a fruit of salvation. It is an indicator of salvation, but not the means of procuring salvation. Jesus was not adding baptism as prerequisite for salvation. If Jesus said, "he that believes and honors his parents are saved" it would not mean that honoring your parents is required for salvation. Rather that honoring your parents is evidence that you are saved. Baptism is being used the same way. It is included in that we will know who is saved by their willingness to be baptized. A person who doesn't believe would not be saved even if they were baptized. In fact, a person who claims to believe but refuses baptism should not be surprised that their salvation might be suspect.

It is also worth noting that rejecting baptism as a requirement for salvation is not a rejection of baptism nor does it mean that we don't believe baptism is required. It is just that we disagree about what it is requried for. But then, some people do not possess the integrity to recognize that.

[kross]

Jesus said those who believe and are baptized will be saved. Baptism is an act of obedience as a fruit of salvation. It is an indicator of salvation, but not the means of procuring salvation. Jesus was not adding baptism as prerequisite for salvation. If Jesus said, "he that believes and honors his parents are saved" it would not mean that honoring your parents is required for salvation. Rather that honoring your parents is evidence that you are saved. Baptism is being used the same way. It is included in that we will know who is saved by their willingness to be baptized. A person who doesn't believe would not be saved even if they were baptized. In fact, a person who claims to believe but refuses baptism should not be surprised that their salvation might be suspect.

I think it is relevent that JESUS was speaking to those under the law about the law. JESUS wasn't teaching grace to those under grace. There has to be an understanding drawn from context in scripture and context in time and place. There is nothing in what JESUS is teaching at this point with regard to HIS atoning death and resurection or the work of the HOLY SPIRIT that brings people to salvation.

IN what you have stated there is the foundation for yet another doctrinal disagreement in that there are those here, not me, who teach that keeping the law is required for salvation, thus if you do not honor your parents, you are not saved. Just thought I would point that out in the hope of heading off another rabbit trail.

[Guest shiloh357]

The problem with arguing that baptism is required for salvation is that it is based on isolated verses and not on actuall doctrinal teaching, and there is a difference. The strength of a doctrine is based on how it taught in Scripture and there is no doctrinal presentation of baptism as a requirement for salvation.

Jesus said those who believe and are baptized will be saved. Baptism is an act of obedience as a fruit of salvation. It is an indicator of salvation, but not the means of procuring salvation. Jesus was not adding baptism as prerequisite for salvation.

The truth is worth repeating here

[exrockstar]

Baptism is being used the same way. It is included in that we will know who is saved by their willingness to be baptized. A person who doesn't believe would not be saved even if they were baptized. In fact, a person who claims to believe but refuses baptism should not be surprised that their salvation might be suspect.

you are definately caught on works. I'll add another example to your examples:

A church believes in a FALSE gospel, they baptize others, they all perceive each other as saved since they were practicing water baptism yet they were never saved from the beginning.

Plus, now you wag your finger on those that their salvation is secure but may be "suspect" if they do not water baptize? Water baptism has NOTHING to do with salvation!

using the Christian belief system that YOU have makes me suspect to your salvation because you say that living in a habitual sin makes a person's salvation suspect too. you've addressed horizoneast pretty arrogantly "...and I proved it, little man...." Arrogance is a sin and you've excercised that attitude to members for over a year. By your own beliefs....your salvation is suspect.

[OneLight]

Let's not to continue with the labeling. Remember, when you point one finger, there are three others pointing back at you.

The fact is that there are many verses that give us direction as to what works we are expected to perform, whether they are of a personal nature or of a social nature. None will get you saved, but are part of the fruits of a maturing believer. If any do not believe that we have works to perform, read the book of James as a start. The Parables of Jesus are good teaching tools. Salvation is through Christ and not works, but we, once being bought through Christ, no longer belong to ourselves, but to God and we are to be about His business.

A hint, His business is not just attending church one day of the week and living in the world the other six. It is not sitting on the sidelines as others do what you are called to do yourself.

[Guest shiloh357]

you are definately caught on works. I'll add another example to your examples:

A church believes in a FALSE gospel, they baptize others, they all perceive each other as saved since they were practicing water baptism yet they were never saved from the beginning.

I am really not sure where you are going with that.

Plus, now you wag your finger on those that their salvation is secure but may be "suspect" if they do not water baptize?

No, that is not what I said. What I said is that obedience is the fruit of salvation. If a person refuses to be baptized, if they refuse to be obdedient to the commandment then by what evidence to give of their salvation. Salvation should produce a heart of willing obedience to the Lord. A Christian WANTS to obey.

Water baptism has NOTHING to do with salvation!

I never said it did. In fact, if you bother to read myi posts, you will find that I have been one of those claiming that salvation does not depend on baptism at all.

using the Christian belief system that YOU have makes me suspect to your salvation because you say that living in a habitual sin makes a person's salvation suspect too.

The problem is here is that you have not read my posts, but are breathlessly and hysterically responding to what you think I am saying. You, obviously have some ridiculous idea you have assigned to me and you are filtering all of my posts through that misperception.

you've addressed horizoneast pretty arrogantly "...and I proved it, little man...." Arrogance is a sin and you've excercised that attitude to members for over a year. By your own beliefs....your salvation is suspect.

Horizon deserves the responses he gets. He is bearing false witness against me because in order to deflect attention away from his sloppy, bargain basement "theology."

[tah]

Amen... I am "Baptized into Christ" and that is the only one I have to have ..

Although I think it is a great thing to do after that first Baptism..

You are just showing the world who you are now...

A new creation in Christ Jesus....

Look up "Baptized into Christ" ...

[Sir Gareth]

Baptism is not a salvation issue but a doctrinal issue. Yes, it is good that the believer be baptised as our Lord was. It is the outward expression of a new life in Christ. However, it is not required for salvation.

Baptism in water is an act of obedience to the Lord

[OneLight]

horizoneast,

You ride the wave of deceit and twists your own words to try and one-up anyone who discusses issues with you. In one post, you say that salvation comes only through Christ.

As I have said - we are completely and finally saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. Salvation is God