Freewill

December 5, 2009

please provide scripture that the demons are currently obedient to Christ.

December 5, 2009

do you believe (as you've indicated earlier multiple times) that whatever God allows is actually His will that it occurs?

kross · December 5, 2009

no alex, that is not my assertion, it is (or was) kross's assertion. it appears he edited his post, because originally he had stated that every demon was under the complete control of God and did only what God wanted it to do.

he had made a similar statement in another thread, and i had asked the exact same question (if he believed that rape, child molestation, etc was the will of God), and instead of responding to it he accused me of having a superiority complex.

my point, and i'm saying this for him more than you, was to try to get him to see the water flooding through the holes in his doctrinal theory. i was trying hard to get him to recognize the difference between God's sovereign will (that ultimately, God will use even horrific circumstances to glorify Him in the end) and God's perfect will (what He wants us to do, but we often choose to be disobedient and do our own thing.)

kross, i believe you have come to recognize that the way you were presenting your opinion did not reflect the nature of God... and that instead of admitting that, you are trying to make it appear that was what you were saying all along. and while i do understand that from a personal view and don't mind so much, it's really not fair to others who come into this thread and suddenly think that the questions i challenged you with were how *i* believed. and while they may never know, God does see the pride and deception there, and it is He who is disappointed by it.

The initial post has not been editted. It still says that.

I responded to your statement that somehow you were more spiritually mature than I am.

I have not said GOD sends the evil to do specific tasks. Evil will do all it can do that is evil without any leading. It is GOD who determines the boundries that evil can exist in.

Despite the fact that it flies in the face of all you believe, GOD can stop any rape, or murder, or molestation HE wants to at any time. There are many times in the life of a believer that evil is intended towards us the GOD doesn't allow. There are also time when HE does allow it. All of which is in accordance wtih HIS plan and purpose. There are many times in the life of an unbeliever when GOD doesn't give Satan full freedon to do as he chooses.

It is GOD who created these demons and it is GOD who determines the lengths they can go to.

kross · December 5, 2009

do you believe (as you've indicated earlier multiple times) that whatever God allows is actually His will that it occurs?

Yes. I believe it is within HIS absolute will. If it were not, HE would not allow it.

wyguy · December 5, 2009

please provide scripture that the demons are currently obedient to Christ.

Not only are they subject to Christ (Luke 8:31, 32; James 2:19) but they are subject to believers (Luke 10:17, 19, 20; Romans 16:20; Ephesians 2:6 Colossians 2:12-15; 1 John 2:13, 14; 4:4; 5:18; Revelation 12:11 )

I looked it up.

kross · December 5, 2009

please provide scripture that the demons are currently obedient to Christ.

I really have to show you the scripture where JESUS states all authority in Heaven and on Earth is given to HIM? Or the scriptures where even the demons are subject to HIS authority? Do you think that was only true while HE was on earth and now HE has no authority over them?

The very nature of an all powerful, ever present, all knowing GOD declares that this is so. (unless you do not believe JESUS is GOD, which is another conversation alltogether)

Let me ask you two questions.

Why did GOD create the Earth and man as HE did

How do you think GOD will keep the next Earth from ending up like this one if this was not HIS intention?

jsca777 · December 5, 2009

please provide scripture that the demons are currently obedient to Christ.

Not only are they subject to Christ (Luke 8:31, 32; James 2:19) but they are subject to believers (Luke 10:17, 19, 20; Romans 16:20; Ephesians 2:6 Colossians 2:12-15; 1 John 2:13, 14; 4:4; 5:18; Revelation 12:11 )

I looked it up.

It's only when believers take authority over them in the Name of Jesus, that there activites are dismantled. Demons do whatever they have legal access to do, unless they are dealt with by the power of God by people who are exercising the authority that the Lord gave them.

Edited December 5, 2009 by jsca777

kross · December 5, 2009

please provide scripture that the demons are currently obedient to Christ.

Not only are they subject to Christ (Luke 8:31, 32; James 2:19) but they are subject to believers (Luke 10:17, 19, 20; Romans 16:20; Ephesians 2:6 Colossians 2:12-15; 1 John 2:13, 14; 4:4; 5:18; Revelation 12:11 )

I looked it up.

It's only when believers take authority over them in the Name of Jesus, that there activites are dismantled. Demons do whatever they have legal access to do, unless they are dealt with by the power of God by people who are exercising the authority that the Lord gave them.

Well stated.

JCISGD · December 5, 2009

so if every demon is under the control of God, then God causes all evil that occurs, is that what you're saying? that every evil act is God's will? every child molestation, every physical beating, every murder, every rape, those are all God's will?

><> ><> The evil one can only do what God allows. ''All thing work together for good'' God's in charge, ALL the time. or He isn't God.

Please dont think im trying to be any authority, but i tend to go with Lady C on this one and I think others are over simplifying Gods sovereignty.

Jesus told a parable of the K.O.G being like a man who started a business and then left it in charge of some managers and went on a journey, He was talking of God but we know God is never absent or away on a journey. But God can remain sovereign even if He delegates decision making to others of free will, but it is clear also that He does not condone all decisions.

Take for instance the owner of a company, he allows his employers to make choices without always asking him, but he still retains the ability to hire and fire.

His employees can go outside of his will but he still remains in charge. Even if they do rebell, he can if he is wise make it work out for good perhaps, but we know God can make all things work out for good even if we all rebell.

kross · December 5, 2009

so if every demon is under the control of God, then God causes all evil that occurs, is that what you're saying? that every evil act is God's will? every child molestation, every physical beating, every murder, every rape, those are all God's will?

><> ><> The evil one can only do what God allows. ''All thing work together for good'' God's in charge, ALL the time. or He isn't God.

Please dont think im trying to be any authority, but i tend to go with Lady C on this one and I think others are over simplifying Gods sovereignty.

Jesus told a parable of the K.O.G being like a man who started a business and then left it in charge of some managers and went on a journey, He was talking of God but we know God is never absent or away on a journey. But God can remain sovereign even if He delegates decision making to others of free will, but it is clear also that He does not condone all decisions.

Take for instance the owner of a company, he allows his employers to make choices without always asking him, but he still retains the ability to hire and fire.
His employees can go outside of his will but he still remains in charge. Even if they do rebell, he can if he is wise make it work out for good perhaps, but we know God can make all things work out for good even if we all rebell.

And even thoughhe is not all knwing and omipresent, the owner must take responsibility for those he hires and what they do. Now, if GOD were a human and did not have all power and authority and wasn't all knowing and ever present, then your simily would hold. But the difference is massive.

I do nto know about you, but I am glad GOD is in control.