Freewill

[Joshua-777]

James 1:13-16

13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

16Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. 17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

[Joshua-777]

please provide scripture that the demons are currently obedient to Christ.

I really have to show you the scripture where JESUS states all authority in Heaven and on Earth is given to HIM? Or the scriptures where even the demons are subject to HIS authority? Do you think that was only true while HE was on earth and now HE has no authority over them?

The very nature of an all powerful, ever present, all knowing GOD declares that this is so. (unless you do not believe JESUS is GOD, which is another conversation alltogether)

Let me ask you two questions.

Why did GOD create the Earth and man as HE did

How do you think GOD will keep the next Earth from ending up like this one if this was not HIS intention?

God created the earth and man perfect, God is good and has no part in evil. Through sin, we separated ourselves from God, which was not Gods plan, but God allowed it to happen. The way I see it, if God is good, than evil is the absence of God. Just as Darkness is the absence of light. The more this world separates us from God, the more wicked this world becomes. God will use this for the better. Romans 8:28 For I know that all things work for the good of those who love God and those who are called according to his purpose.

"Why did GOD create the Earth and man as HE did?"

God created the earth and man perfect, He did not create us flawed. Through temptation we fell, witch temptation is not of God,

James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

How do you think GOD will keep the next Earth from ending up like this one if this was not HIS intention?

Why do you put limits on God? God will remove sin, there will be no separation and we will be created perfect as God has intended from the beginning.

Now the ultimate question, why?

I believe he gave us free will to sin, and the free will to separate us from him to reveal his love for us. It was not his intention that we would and he did not create us to fall away and sin. I believe We knew what we would do before he created us, but God loved us even before he created us. Instead of just destroying us as the wicked, he gives us a chance. We failed, and we sinned. Us sinning is not Gods will, but God can use it for the greater good. God is good, He has no accord with evil.

2 Corinthians 6:14-20 (New King James Version)

14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you[a] are the temple of the living God

God has authority over all creation, but he never wills to do evil, and his perfect will has no accord with evil.

Romans 12:2 (New King James Version)

2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

This verse clearly shows that the evil that goes on is not a part of Gods will, he allows it to happen but doesn't will for it to happen. Why would it say that we may prove what is good and acceptable and perfect will of God. This shows that we as believers must follow him to follow his perfect will. Do not attribute wickedness to God.

[Joshua-777]

also

John 7:17

If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Hebrews 10:36

You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

1 Peter 4:2

As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.

1 John 2:17

The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.

1 John 5:14

This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

[Guest LadyC]

i have to leave for work. but let me make a few things clear.

i never said i was more spiritually mature than you, kross. that misinterpretation is all on you, as i already pointed out. i stated in that thread that we are ALL on a journey towards spiritual maturity that none of us will ever complete, but also indicated that your understanding of this particular subject is one that as you mature spiritually, you will come to understand the nature of God more fully. you accused me of implying i was superior to you, an accusation which must come from either a gross misunderstanding, or a deep insecurity, because it is not at all what i was implying.

as for God, you have stated plainly that any evil act which is perpetrated against another person is God's will. that is a mischaracterization of God. God does not wish harm to others. that is NEVER His will. it is also NEVER His will that a child of God sins in disobedience to Him. but He allows us the freedom to choose obedience over sin, and He will not interfere with one's free will.

however, in His SOVEREIGN will, all will glorify Him in the end. He will use the tragic circumstances that occur as a result of our own or another's actions to bring glory to His name. that doesn't mean that He wanted the tragedy to happen, it simply means He allowed it (because He allows free will), but He will "make lemonade out of lemons."

and yes, God CAN intervene on anyone's behalf to prevent a tragedy. that does NOT mean that if He doesn't intervene, that He WILLED it to happen in the first place. God intervenes in human affairs as a direct result of intercessory prayer. period.

someone please look up the scriptures if he asks for them, i have to walk out the door in ten minutes and i'm not even ready.

and by the way, God has temporarily given dominion over the earth away. He does not have dominion. look that one up kross. i believe you'll find that early in genesis. He will not have dominion til after He sets up His new kingdom on earth. not because He can't have dominion, but because He has turned it over temporarily.

what God allows is not always what He wants. in fact, it is very rarely what He wants. this theme is repeated over and over throughout history. How many times did God give people what THEY asked for, despite the fact that their request was outside of His will?

outside of his PERFECT will.... but within His sovereign will....

so again, what does sovereign will mean? it means within the boundaries that God will allow to occur because of the freedom He has given us to make our own choices, even if they oppose what God wants.

[Rick-Parker]

so if every demon is under the control of God, then God causes all evil that occurs, is that what you're saying? that every evil act is God's will? every child molestation, every physical beating, every murder, every rape, those are all God's will?

><> ><> The evil one can only do what God allows. ''All thing work together for good'' God's in charge, ALL the time. or He isn't God.

Romans 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. There is a big difference between your abbreviated version of scripture and what is actually written.

[kross]

so if every demon is under the control of God, then God causes all evil that occurs, is that what you're saying? that every evil act is God's will? every child molestation, every physical beating, every murder, every rape, those are all God's will?

><> ><> The evil one can only do what God allows. ''All thing work together for good'' God's in charge, ALL the time. or He isn't God.

Romans 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. There is a big difference between your abbreviated version of scripture and what is actually written.

HE makes all things work for the good would mean ALL THINGS, yes? For those who love HIM and are THE CALLED according to HIS purpose.

I think we agree on that.

[kross]

i have to leave for work. but let me make a few things clear.

i never said i was more spiritually mature than you, kross. that misinterpretation is all on you, as i already pointed out. i stated in that thread that we are ALL on a journey towards spiritual maturity that none of us will ever complete, but also indicated that your understanding of this particular subject is one that as you mature spiritually, you will come to understand the nature of God more fully. you accused me of implying i was superior to you, an accusation which must come from either a gross misunderstanding, or a deep insecurity, because it is not at all what i was implying.

as for God, you have stated plainly that any evil act which is perpetrated against another person is God's will. that is a mischaracterization of God. God does not wish harm to others. that is NEVER His will. it is also NEVER His will that a child of God sins in disobedience to Him. but He allows us the freedom to choose obedience over sin, and He will not interfere with one's free will.

however, in His SOVEREIGN will, all will glorify Him in the end. He will use the tragic circumstances that occur as a result of our own or another's actions to bring glory to His name. that doesn't mean that He wanted the tragedy to happen, it simply means He allowed it (because He allows free will), but He will "make lemonade out of lemons."

and yes, God CAN intervene on anyone's behalf to prevent a tragedy. that does NOT mean that if He doesn't intervene, that He WILLED it to happen in the first place. God intervenes in human affairs as a direct result of intercessory prayer. period.

someone please look up the scriptures if he asks for them, i have to walk out the door in ten minutes and i'm not even ready.

and by the way, God has temporarily given dominion over the earth away. He does not have dominion. look that one up kross. i believe you'll find that early in genesis. He will not have dominion til after He sets up His new kingdom on earth. not because He can't have dominion, but because He has turned it over temporarily.

what God allows is not always what He wants. in fact, it is very rarely what He wants. this theme is repeated over and over throughout history. How many times did God give people what THEY asked for, despite the fact that their request was outside of His will?

outside of his PERFECT will.... but within His sovereign will....

so again, what does sovereign will mean? it means within the boundaries that God will allow to occur because of the freedom He has given us to make our own choices, even if they oppose what God wants.

I bolded the line. Very clearly you are telling me that I must not understand the nature of GOD as well as you, but as I mature in my spirituality, I will learn to think as you do. Since you have written it twice now, I have to believe that you truly think that. Since I think, as you mature in your spirituality, you will come to undersrand what I have already told you of the truth of GOD's nature, I will have to wait for you to catch up with me while we are on this journey.

When JESUS rose from the dead, HE made this statement, "All power is given unto me in heaven and on earth" Now, chronologically, this was after any scriptures in Genesis.

And yes, it means "within the boundaries that GOD will allow" you said that quite well. GOD detrmines what HE will allow. So, freewill exists within the boundries that GOD will allow. Now, when you get to the point where you can add "for each person", that will be the whole truth.

Each person makes choices within the boundries that GOD will allow for that person. IF that person is looking like they will make a choice outside of those boundries, GOD will intervene to see to it that doesn't happen. Thus, HE allows what takes place and HE keeps other things from taking place. Therefore, what takes place within those boundries are IN HIS WILL and what might take place outside of those boundries, ARE NOT HIS WILL.

I am sorry to say, there is no biblical foundation for,

" God intervenes in human affairs as a direct result of intercessory prayer. period." The idea that GOD will not do what is best for HIS children, whether they ask or not, is just foriegn to me. Even when I do not know what to ask for, what is good for me, HE prays to HIMSELF on my behalf.

Clearly, as you have stated, we are different planes of maturity. One or the other of us will continue to grow or stagnate where they are. Either way, we will all know when we are with HIM face to face.

[kross]

please provide scripture that the demons are currently obedient to Christ.

I really have to show you the scripture where JESUS states all authority in Heaven and on Earth is given to HIM? Or the scriptures where even the demons are subject to HIS authority? Do you think that was only true while HE was on earth and now HE has no authority over them?

The very nature of an all powerful, ever present, all knowing GOD declares that this is so. (unless you do not believe JESUS is GOD, which is another conversation alltogether)

Let me ask you two questions.

Why did GOD create the Earth and man as HE did

How do you think GOD will keep the next Earth from ending up like this one if this was not HIS intention?

God created the earth and man perfect, God is good and has no part in evil. Through sin, we separated ourselves from God, which was not Gods plan, but God allowed it to happen. The way I see it, if God is good, than evil is the absence of God. Just as Darkness is the absence of light. The more this world separates us from God, the more wicked this world becomes. God will use this for the better. Romans 8:28 For I know that all things work for the good of those who love God and those who are called according to his purpose.

"Why did GOD create the Earth and man as HE did?"

God created the earth and man perfect, He did not create us flawed. Through temptation we fell, witch temptation is not of God,

James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

How do you think GOD will keep the next Earth from ending up like this one if this was not HIS intention?

Why do you put limits on God? God will remove sin, there will be no separation and we will be created perfect as God has intended from the beginning.

Now the ultimate question, why?

I believe he gave us free will to sin, and the free will to separate us from him to reveal his love for us. It was not his intention that we would and he did not create us to fall away and sin. I believe We knew what we would do before he created us, but God loved us even before he created us. Instead of just destroying us as the wicked, he gives us a chance. We failed, and we sinned. Us sinning is not Gods will, but God can use it for the greater good. God is good, He has no accord with evil.

2 Corinthians 6:14-20 (New King James Version)

14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you[a] are the temple of the living God

God has authority over all creation, but he never wills to do evil, and his perfect will has no accord with evil.

Romans 12:2 (New King James Version)

2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

This verse clearly shows that the evil that goes on is not a part of Gods will, he allows it to happen but doesn't will for it to happen. Why would it say that we may prove what is good and acceptable and perfect will of God. This shows that we as believers must follow him to follow his perfect will. Do not attribute wickedness to God.

No-one has attributed wickedness to GOD. Wickedness is all us humans are capable of, "The heart is decietfully wiccked..."

The only good that we do, is what GOD does through us.

If GOD doesn't stop wickedness, that doesn't mean HE is guilty of wickedness.

But it does mean it serves a purpose in HIS plan. Otherwise it wouldn't exist.

In heven, there will be no wickedness. Why? Because GOD doesn't want it to be there. If HE didnt want it to be here, it wouldn't be here.

[kross]

James 1:13-16

13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

16Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. 17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

AMEN

[Guest LadyC]

kross, i think i'll let this post be the end of my discussion with you. you believe that it is God's will for evil acts to be perpetrated against individuals. therefore, pertaining to THIS particular issue, you do not have a clear understanding of the nature of our heavenly Father. there may be other topics of biblical import that you are very knowledgeable about, and may have a far clearer understanding than i have. but to believe that God desires for evil to happen is very, very incorrect. now if you want to take offense to that, fine. i was not being condescending to you, but apparently your pride has gotten in the way of your ability to learn from others in this thread. so the best i can do is intercede for you and pray that the Holy Spirit do whatever it takes to help you to understand that God never, ever wishes for evil to occur.

I am sorry to say, there is no biblical foundation for,

" God intervenes in human affairs as a direct result of intercessory prayer. period." The idea that GOD will not do what is best for HIS children, whether they ask or not, is just foriegn to me. Even when I do not know what to ask for, what is good for me, HE prays to HIMSELF on my behalf.

oh, yes there is. it is entirely biblical. what is tripping you up is this assumption that i ever said whether an individual asks for His intervention on their behalf. if i had said that, then you would be right, there is no biblical foundation for that. but it is NOT what i said. perhaps you don't understand the meaning of intercessory prayer. it's when OTHERS pray, interceding for someone else. i do hope you will study this subject more deeply. and if you need help, i hope others will provide direction as to where to look. i apologize that at this late hour i have neither the alertness nor the desire to look up the scriptures for you to study. i know that doesn't bode well on my part through your eyes, and it is something i might regret. but i also know that you're a smart person and can, if you choose to (of your own free will) find the scriptures pertaining to this.

you're not alone in believing this theory though. the theory (i don't know what else to call it, because i refuse to believe that it is actually a doctrine that is taught) is exactly what prevents SOOO many unbelievers from reaching out to God.... the theory that God desires evil to befall people. that it is God's will that this person gets raped, or that person gets murdered, or the little toddler down the street was molested. heck, if that was the nature of our God, we'd all be stupid for dedicating our lives to Him. i'd turn my back on Him this very minute if that was who He was. i praise His Holy name that it is not His nature.

now, it's late, i'm tired, and i'm getting short tempered. you may be very mature spiritually, but like each of us, you have room to grow. so do i. there are biblical issues which i don't understand. there are some that you don't understand. the same can be said for every person on this forum. but it seems to me that this defensiveness you are displaying, this accusation that i'm somehow projecting myself as superior to you (that's the word you used previously), sounds quite as if you are saying the opposite... that i'm inferior to you. so since the two of us are unable to effectively communicate with each other, i'm done.

may God richly bless you.