Trinity

[Botz]

When you and I show people the Lord as long as we are True and speak the Truth about who the Lord is, I have no problem dropping the semantics. What I mean is let us say a particular word such as the "trinity" is a loaded term for some people I think we could show them the Lord without using the term Trinity. But when we do that we must in fact show them the "Trinity" as that is who the Lord IS.

My point is not about the words but about Jesus. People are often much much more comfortable with proclaiming Jesus as human or only a prophet or only a lesser "son", but in fact Jesus is God is divine in all ways, scripture tells us that and shows us that. The reason this is key is it goes to the heart of our entire faith answering the question: who is Jesus? It is indeed a prime objective of Satan to give us Jesus, as long as we pull Him down from the Crown of God, as long as we remove the Divinity of Christ, as long as we remove Jesus from the Godhead; Satan is fine with Jesus. This is my concern, I am not saying that you are doing that in any way, I just wanted to make clear that in my opinion this is not an arcane theological point, but is indeed important, very important.

When you show people the Lord you are in fact showing them the Trinity.

Is it fair to not be totally up front about this, stumbling block or not?

I think it goes without saying, that any true follower of the L-rd is not going to/should not attempt to diminish the nature or the function of the G-dhead...or to try and soften the impact and thrust of the gospel to present an easy grace and make it more palatable for anyone...at the same time it would be unwise and not a very good evangelistic technique to present anything that might be an added stumbling block...it detracts from the simplicity of the gospel message 'repent and believe on the name of Jesus'...although naturally many thinking people will go through a process before they are 'harvested' into the kingdom of G-d, and this means answering them as best you can, including the doctrine of the Trinity if necessary....

I like what Shiloh says here:-

The teaching of the Trinity is a means of preserving those elements of what we believe. It is an attempt to define God, but to codify the revelation He has given us of Himself.

I can work with that, because it doesn't elevate 'the Trinity' to some un-Scriptural level, where people are more concerned with advocating 'the Trinity' than they are of presenting the Saviour.

When you say:-

When you show people the Lord you are in fact showing them the Trinity.

I understand what you mean, although personally I would never word it that way...and like I tried to explain, I never tend to use Scripture to explain or defend the Trinity, but I might use the doctrine of the Trinity to help clarify what is evident in the Bible, or to demonstrate to people that they don't really have a clue about the doctrine they are over-promoting and defending so vociferously.

[AnotherTraveler]

Before you all run this up to it's usual 50 pages before a mod see's it going no where and closes it, you might try and approach it by very carefully defining what you mean by GOD.

Many people discuss this subject with the defination of GOD being the Trinity. If a person who looks at the statement as just being the same as the Greek and Hebrew words meaning diety, then many people are discussing this from the same frame of mind of talking about oranges and apples as the same thing.

There are many dieties in the universe/s as our Bible tells us........ but for us, our one God is [Father, Son and Spirit] "IT" our God is one because though all three are Gods, without all three together none could be our God that we could approach. It takes all three to be our one God. All things came from the Father. Though Jesus was born a flesh man, his spirit had existed for ever with the Father and not a brand new one like we got when we were born, and it was in the form of God before he became flesh that Jesus actually built the universe. We are told that "all things" came from the Father through Jesus when he was "The Word"; and neither of them are reachagble without the Spirit that lives within each of us.

It's all three or nothing so to speak..... thus they are our one God.

This is one of the most bizarre things I have ever read on Worthy, and that is saying something.

[AnotherTraveler]

lekh l'kha It's not the truths that the doctrine of the Trinity seeks to express that i have a problem with - it's the use of the extra Biblical word "persons" (plural) in the same sentence with the extrea-Biblical word "Trinity" which to me, negates the Oneness of God because it conjures up images in the human mind of three Gods.

I agree....the Old Covenant talks about G-d, and the Spirit, and the Angel of the L-rd etc, and yet there was never any confusion about the Oneness of G-d...there was no attempt at division, or to define the indefinable. (although I suspect in some of the Jewish commentaries there were certain controversies)

The New Covenant extends this same understanding, and we see more clearly, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, which to me mysteriously consolidates and unifies G-d and at the same time helps me appreciate some of the revelation about Himself to us.

I don't have any worries about the use of extra-biblical words, but I think the way the 'Trinity' has been promoted and the very nature of the name, has been the probable cause of further separation between Jewish and Gentile Believers...but it is an ongoing concern that warrants further reseach on my part...especially the idea that it was somehow a carefully chosen and deliberate undertaking.

Yes. I think if we put ourselves in the shoes of conscientious Jew who would enquire if Jesus is the Messiah, but had been brought up to recite the Sh'ma morning and evening every day, the words "three persons" and "Trinity" would ring alarm bells.

As it should with us also.

[AnotherTraveler]

Did you understand the mechanics of the "Trinity doctrine" before being saved?

And yet if the unsaved should question

[other one]

Before you all run this up to it's usual 50 pages before a mod see's it going no where and closes it, you might try and approach it by very carefully defining what you mean by GOD.

Many people discuss this subject with the defination of GOD being the Trinity. If a person who looks at the statement as just being the same as the Greek and Hebrew words meaning diety, then many people are discussing this from the same frame of mind of talking about oranges and apples as the same thing.

There are many dieties in the universe/s as our Bible tells us........ but for us, our one God is [Father, Son and Spirit] "IT" our God is one because though all three are Gods, without all three together none could be our God that we could approach. It takes all three to be our one God. All things came from the Father. Though Jesus was born a flesh man, his spirit had existed for ever with the Father and not a brand new one like we got when we were born, and it was in the form of God before he became flesh that Jesus actually built the universe. We are told that "all things" came from the Father through Jesus when he was "The Word"; and neither of them are reachagble without the Spirit that lives within each of us.

It's all three or nothing so to speak..... thus they are our one God.

This is one of the most bizarre things I have ever read on Worthy, and that is saying something.

Are you saying that Jesus didn't exist before he was flesh???

[Smalcald]

lekh l'kha It's not the truths that the doctrine of the Trinity seeks to express that i have a problem with - it's the use of the extra Biblical word "persons" (plural) in the same sentence with the extrea-Biblical word "Trinity" which to me, negates the Oneness of God because it conjures up images in the human mind of three Gods.

I agree....the Old Covenant talks about G-d, and the Spirit, and the Angel of the L-rd etc, and yet there was never any confusion about the Oneness of G-d...there was no attempt at division, or to define the indefinable. (although I suspect in some of the Jewish commentaries there were certain controversies)

The New Covenant extends this same understanding, and we see more clearly, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, which to me mysteriously consolidates and unifies G-d and at the same time helps me appreciate some of the revelation about Himself to us.

I don't have any worries about the use of extra-biblical words, but I think the way the 'Trinity' has been promoted and the very nature of the name, has been the probable cause of further separation between Jewish and Gentile Believers...but it is an ongoing concern that warrants further reseach on my part...especially the idea that it was somehow a carefully chosen and deliberate undertaking.

Yes. I think if we put ourselves in the shoes of conscientious Jew who would enquire if Jesus is the Messiah, but had been brought up to recite the Sh'ma morning and evening every day, the words "three persons" and "Trinity" would ring alarm bells.

As it should with us also.

But that is because what modern Jews who practice Judaism today believe about the Messiah is not who Jesus IS, Jesus is not that Messiah, Jesus is not a political leader nor is He only human or a prophet sent by God; and this is a major stumbling block I agree.

But I would agree when talking about Jesus to someone and giving a defense of the faith, I would certainly not start with the exact nature of the Trinity, I would start with the fact that Jesus and God are one however, only God can forgive our sins as only God is truly offended by our sins. Jesus is not less than God if He is going to forgive our sins and I think we all agree on that. But just stating that is indeed the start of talking about the Trinity.

I am very sensitive to how these semantic things can get in the way, so yeah I agree if the word is a problem don't use the word.

[AnotherTraveler]

Just so people have a reference....

Athanasian Creed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

42. and shall give account of their own works.

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

It is almost impossible to have an intellectual conversation concerning the trinity because of the doctrinal double talk that is gibberish in it's highest form. Consider the word "person".

The American Heritage

[lekh l'kha]

Did you understand the mechanics of the "Trinity doctrine" before being saved?

And yet if the unsaved should question

[lekh l'kha]

Notice point # 28 in Botz's post below:

28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Good post, Another Traveler. Expresses exactly how I feel. "Defining" God or expressing Him in any doctrine is way too far over the heads of mankind - and yet they will try to, and think they have done, what they can't do.

Just so people have a reference....

Athanasian Creed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

42. and shall give account of their own works.

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

It is almost impossible to have an intellectual conversation concerning the trinity because of the doctrinal double talk that is gibberish in it's highest form. Consider the word "person".

The American Heritage

[Guest shiloh357]

So, the introduction to explaining the doctrine "central to our faith" states that it is beyond human understanding. So preceding the explanation is the declaration that no human can understand this, how is it that we don't have a problem with this? I submit it is a case of intellectual dishonesty, ignoring of the facts so that the story can be told, believed, and become required for all, though it is not able to be comprehended by any human.

The same can be said for God's eternal existence. It is beyond human comprehension how God can have no beginning and no end, yet that is exactly what we are expected to believe.

Belief and understanding are two completely different things. Belief does not necessarily depend on understanding. Much of what God does is beyond our understanding, but we are still accountable for believing it. So it should not seem so strange that any aspect of God's nature transcends human understanding. That does not make it unbelievable, though.

Consider this: In Ephesians 3:19, Paul's prayer for the saints is that we know the love of Christ that surpassess knowledge. It is the same kind of paradox. To know what is unknowable. The verb in that verse means to acknowledge. We can acknowledge that which is beyond our comprehension. It is the same with other aspects of God's nature that defy the limits of human comprehension. The concept is there, we can see it, but we don't understand it.

The Mormon's "baptism for the dead" is at least taking a single verse of scripture and twisting the meaning, but trinity the word, or trinity the explanation, or trinity the explanation of the summary of the explanation is not found in the scriptures.

Again, neither are the words, grandfather or legalism, but those concepts are in the Bible, nonetheless.

Try to find coequal, I can show you where Jesus said the Father is greater than I (John 14:28).

Yes, but keep in mind that Jesus was speaking terms of His ministry on earth, not His divine nature. Jesus, in terms of being God was equal with the Father, but in terms of His humanity and ministry on earth was voluntarily submissive to His Father's will.