The Constitution

[MorningGlory]

My 2 oldest grandkids, both 24, know their politics. A liberal wouldn't have much luck trying to debate my grandson, because they'd lose. They both voted for McCain (or really, against Obama).

[Deepblue]

I don't agree that 18 year olds should vote.

Why? They can fight a war can't they?

They shouldn't be doing that either.

Well they do fight for the country, proudly I might add. And as it is, if an 18 year old can fight for his or her country, they deserve to be a factor in determining who leads the country, regardless of how well they decide to inform themselves. It's not just young people who "blindly" vote, if that is what you are implying. I get the feeling the election of the current President makes you feel this way. It wasn't just young people who put him in the White House but almost EVERY OTHER demographic as well.

62% of 18-24 year old votes went to Obama

56% of ALL women votes (53% of the TOTAL vote count) went to Obama

So maybe women shouldn't vote either? (If that is what you were implying. I apologize if it wasn't. It's just that you weren't elaborating or being specific in any way.)

Just as an example, my granddaughter had a friend who was going to vote for the first time when after she turned 18. She was going to vote for Kerry because she "liked his name".

So how do you think Obama got elected? Most people, in all demographics, voted based on emotion and wanting to be part of history, not just 18 year olds. And I am curious as to what you think about the stats I posted in the last post. Maybe women should not vote as well. By the way, my 73 year old grandma, God Bless her, likes Obama because he acts like "A nice man. Poor Obama. He keeps talking even though people are talking bad about him." See what I mean?

[Hunterpoet]

In another post it was stated:

... the constitution.... there is a fair amount from the original that is no longer with us, most of that for the better.

So I'm wondering what items from the Constitution are no longer with us, and, of course, how are we better off.

lets see.

In the original Constitution you had to be a white to vote...this is no longer with us and I say we are better off.

In the original Constitution you had to be 21 years or older to vote...this is no longer with us and I say we are better off.

In the original Constitution you had to be male to vote...this is no longer with us and I say we are better off.

In the original Constitution the President could serve unlimited terms...this is no longer with us and I say we are better off.

In the original Constitution salvery was legal in the US...this is no longer with us and I say we are better off.

those are the ones off the top of my head, give me a bit and I am sure I can come up with more.

ETA: got one more...In the original Constitution you had to be a property owner to vote...this is no longer with us and I say we are better off.

RG...I'm having difficulty finding the items you have listed in the Constitution.Specifically in Articles 1 thru 7, which is the Constitution. The Amendments are equally unrevealing of your list, save the one about slavery in the amendments, which with both know is the 13th amendment and added in 1865.

I'm including the link where I'm still reading...please look at this site with me and help me find the wording and location of your list.

http://www.house.gov/house/Educate.shtml

I look forward to our continued discussion. I wonder what you mean by original....Washington was elected to a term of 4 years, and of course, re-elected to serve a total of 8 years. I can find no copy of the Constitution that states the President serves an indefinite term.

[Hunterpoet]

RG...I'm having difficulty finding the items you have listed in the Constitution.Specifically in Articles 1 thru 7, which is the Constitution. The Amendments are equally unrevealing of your list, save the one about slavery in the amendments, which with both know is the 13th amendment and added in 1865.

I'm including the link where I'm still reading...please look at this site with me and help me find the wording and location of your list.

I look forward to our continued discussion. I wonder what you mean by original....Washington was elected to a term of 4 years, and of course, re-elected to serve a total of 8 years. I can find no copy of the Constitution that states the President serves an indefinite term.

As you noted, the 13th amendment did away with slavery, meaning the original Constitution allowed it.

The 15th amendment allowed for people of all color to vote...meaning that the original Constitution did not allow it. If it did, there would have been no reason for the amendment.

The 19th amendment allowed for people of all gender to vote...meaning that the original Constitution did not allow it. If it did, there would have been no reason for the amendment.

The 22nd amendment allowed for only two terms in office for the President...meaning that the original Constitution did not limit it at all. If it did, there would have been no reason for the amendment.

The 24th amendment disallowed the charging of a poll tax or other tax in order to vote...meaning that the original Constitution did not limit such things. If it did, there would have been no reason for the amendment.

The 26th amendment allowed all those over the age of 18 to vote...meaning that the original Constitution did allow such things. If it did, there would have been no reason for the amendment.

It seems I might have been mistaken about the land owing thing.

Is there anything else I can help you with?

The only thing you have helped me to see is how terribly unfair people are towards the majority of men founding this nation.

Demanding for things to be spelled out in a document that concerned itself, out of necessity, with the forming of a government as opposed to spelling out very specific individual liberties; when no other country in the known world had done so.

Further bias against these men is seen when no credit is given for the latitude written into the original document allowing for changes which actually benefited the individual.

Another thing to consider is that the federal government at the time took great pains to establish and allow complete sovereignty of the individual states.

From another post like this on the web I discovered this;

According to the timeline at blackpast.org

1780 Mass. abolishes slavery, grants African-American men the right to vote.

1821-New York maintains property qualifications for African-American male voters, while abolishing the same for white male voters. ( While this change in policy in New York demonstrates racism...it verifies that black male property owners did in fact have the right to vote.) Free blacks were also allowed to vote prior to the Civil War in New Jersey, Maine, Vermont, Conn., Rhode Island and New Hampshire. Another interesting find was the Federal Governments support of free black seamen in 1823..determining that treatment of free black seamen in southern ports was...unconstitutional...and passing federal laws to prevent these southern ports from inflicting their obvious racial bias.

So, bearing this in mind, it seems the Constitution did allow African-American men the right to vote and more.

Also I discovered that the percentage of blacks in the south was 65...meaning, of course, that 35% were free. Now for me, even though slavery existed, it seems that even in the south some must have been resisting the idea of slavery, otherwise, all blacks in the south would have been slaves, but maybe you see it differently.

While you are correct that an amendment was necessary to limit the terms of the President, the terms were limited to four years and at the end of each required an election. No President , other than FDR, had ever been elected to more than 2 terms. It wan't until after FDR that the legislators found it necessary to limit the number of terms.

It seems to me that when this country was being founded that the most important thing was to actually form a government, and this is what the first 7 articles accomplished.

They formed a government, established it's sovereignty, fought a war and then went about the business of fine tuning it...i.e. the amendments, and all subsequent legislation improving the rights of all individuals.

Nothing like the United States prior to it's inception had ever existed in the world. To expect it to be perfect from the outset is grossly unfair, as it is to ignore the fact that the Constitution itself did not specifically target any particular group for oppression, but rather allowed for growth and inclusion.

[wyguy]

In the original Constitution you had to be 21 years or older to vote...this is no longer with us and I say we are better off.

As I remember how dumb I was at 18, I'd rather see the voting age go up to 30!

[wyguy]

In the original Constitution you had to be 21 years or older to vote...this is no longer with us and I say we are better off.

As I remember how dumb I was at 18, I'd rather see the voting age go up to 30!

there are dumb 30 year old too!

If I wasn't so dumb, I'd know if that was an insult or not!

[Hunterpoet]

RG...I'm having difficulty finding the items you have listed in the Constitution.Specifically in Articles 1 thru 7, which is the Constitution. The Amendments are equally unrevealing of your list, save the one about slavery in the amendments, which with both know is the 13th amendment and added in 1865.

I'm including the link where I'm still reading...please look at this site with me and help me find the wording and location of your list.

I look forward to our continued discussion. I wonder what you mean by original....Washington was elected to a term of 4 years, and of course, re-elected to serve a total of 8 years. I can find no copy of the Constitution that states the President serves an indefinite term.

As you noted, the 13th amendment did away with slavery, meaning the original Constitution allowed it.

The 15th amendment allowed for people of all color to vote...meaning that the original Constitution did not allow it. If it did, there would have been no reason for the amendment.

The 19th amendment allowed for people of all gender to vote...meaning that the original Constitution did not allow it. If it did, there would have been no reason for the amendment.

The 22nd amendment allowed for only two terms in office for the President...meaning that the original Constitution did not limit it at all. If it did, there would have been no reason for the amendment.

The 24th amendment disallowed the charging of a poll tax or other tax in order to vote...meaning that the original Constitution did not limit such things. If it did, there would have been no reason for the amendment.

The 26th amendment allowed all those over the age of 18 to vote...meaning that the original Constitution did allow such things. If it did, there would have been no reason for the amendment.

It seems I might have been mistaken about the land owing thing.

Is there anything else I can help you with?

The only thing you have helped me to see is how terribly unfair people are towards the majority of men founding this nation.

Demanding for things to be spelled out in a document that concerned itself, out of necessity, with the forming of a government as opposed to spelling out very specific individual liberties; when no other country in the known world had done so.

Further bias against these men is seen when no credit is given for the latitude written into the original document allowing for changes which actually benefited the individual.

Another thing to consider is that the federal government at the time took great pains to establish and allow complete sovereignty of the individual states.

From another post like this on the web I discovered this;

According to the timeline at blackpast.org

1780 Mass. abolishes slavery, grants African-American men the right to vote.

1821-New York maintains property qualifications for African-American male voters, while abolishing the same for white male voters. ( While this change in policy in New York demonstrates racism...it verifies that black male property owners did in fact have the right to vote.) Free blacks were also allowed to vote prior to the Civil War in New Jersey, Maine, Vermont, Conn., Rhode Island and New Hampshire. Another interesting find was the Federal Governments support of free black seamen in 1823..determining that treatment of free black seamen in southern ports was...unconstitutional...and passing federal laws to prevent these southern ports from inflicting their obvious racial bias.

So, bearing this in mind, it seems the Constitution did allow African-American men the right to vote and more.

Also I discovered that the percentage of blacks in the south was 65...meaning, of course, that 35% were free. Now for me, even though slavery existed, it seems that even in the south some must have been resisting the idea of slavery, otherwise, all blacks in the south would have been slaves, but maybe you see it differently.

While you are correct that an amendment was necessary to limit the terms of the President, the terms were limited to four years and at the end of each required an election. No President , other than FDR, had ever been elected to more than 2 terms. It wan't until after FDR that the legislators found it necessary to limit the number of terms.

It seems to me that when this country was being founded that the most important thing was to actually form a government, and this is what the first 7 articles accomplished.

They formed a government, established it's sovereignty, fought a war and then went about the business of fine tuning it...i.e. the amendments, and all subsequent legislation improving the rights of all individuals.

Nothing like the United States prior to it's inception had ever existed in the world. To expect it to be perfect from the outset is grossly unfair, as it is to ignore the fact that the Constitution itself did not specifically target any particular group for oppression, but rather allowed for growth and inclusion.

So, has the Constitution changed or not since it was first written and put into action?

I cant really tell from your answers if you think it has or not.

No Sir..the Constitution has not changed.

[nebula]

In another post it was stated:

... the constitution.... there is a fair amount from the original that is no longer with us, most of that for the better.

So I'm wondering what items from the Constitution are no longer with us, and, of course, how are we better off.

lets see.

In the original Constitution you had to be a white to vote...this is no longer with us and I say we are better off.

In the original Constitution you had to be 21 years or older to vote...this is no longer with us and I say we are better off.

In the original Constitution you had to be male to vote...this is no longer with us and I say we are better off.

In the original Constitution the President could serve unlimited terms...this is no longer with us and I say we are better off.

In the original Constitution salvery was legal in the US...this is no longer with us and I say we are better off.

those are the ones off the top of my head, give me a bit and I am sure I can come up with more.

ETA: got one more...In the original Constitution you had to be a property owner to vote...this is no longer with us and I say we are better off.

Gato -

Would you please cut and paste (with reference to the site) where these things you mentioned are written in the Constitution?

Seriously, I want to see where these rules are written.

[nebula]

As you noted, the 13th amendment did away with slavery, meaning the original Constitution allowed it.

The 15th amendment allowed for people of all color to vote...meaning that the original Constitution did not allow it. If it did, there would have been no reason for the amendment.

The 19th amendment allowed for people of all gender to vote...meaning that the original Constitution did not allow it. If it did, there would have been no reason for the amendment.

The 22nd amendment allowed for only two terms in office for the President...meaning that the original Constitution did not limit it at all. If it did, there would have been no reason for the amendment.

The 24th amendment disallowed the charging of a poll tax or other tax in order to vote...meaning that the original Constitution did not limit such things. If it did, there would have been no reason for the amendment.

The 26th amendment allowed all those over the age of 18 to vote...meaning that the original Constitution did allow such things. If it did, there would have been no reason for the amendment.

Gator -

All you did was confirm that the Constitution did not mention these things previoiusly.

The OP asked:

"what items from the Constitution are no longer with us"

You gave a list of things that were originally never in the Constitution!

[nebula]

Then why did the Constitution need to be changed 27 times? If those things were not there, there would have been no need for the changes.

Those things were either part of the Constitution or there would be no need for the changes (amendments).

you cant have it both ways.

As you quoted from the Preamble to the bill of Rights:

"THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution."

The ammendments are not changes but additions.