Listening to the Holy Spirit

[Permie]

Fear and Love are not opposites, no matter how hard you try to make them such.

Then tell me please why there is no fear in perfected love?

Because pure love has none. It neither has hate, jealousy, pride, covertness, selfish ambitions, contentions and the like. These also are not the opposite of love, yet true love lacks them.

Yes, I agree.

What causes greed? Fear of lack, perhaps?

What causes lying? Fear that the truth will cause a problem?

As you probably know, I believe that at our core, our real selves is love. Perfected Love is what we are meant to be.

With that belief of mine in mind, please consider:

Anger is love frustrated.

Lust is love unfulfilled.

Greed is love unsatisfied.

Lying is love untrusted.

Sloth is love without a purpose.

Revenge is love betrayed.

Pride is love contained: bottled up in self.

Jealousy is love without a foundation.

All of those errors of unrighteous anger, lust, greed, lying, sloth, revenge, pride, jealousy and the list could go on are all are sins which are corrected by perfected love wherein no fear exists.

[Permie]

And as is usual the proving scripture was ignored that said that there is no fear in perfected love. And just why would that be?

As for the healthy respect, correct, I agree. Same holds true, when we respect God we will obey Him. If we don't, well there's plenty of scripture about that. The first whom are thrown in the lake of fire are the fearful.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 21:8

Permie, your theology is a bit strange to me. Do you know that it means when it says "But the fearful..." in Revelation 21:8? It means "the cowardly."

As OneLight pointed out, you cannot engage in two completely contradictory activities at the same time. One cannot love and hate at the same time. Therefore they are opposites. However one can fear God and love Him at the same time.

The type of fear described in 1John 4:18 is the fear of the judgment, which is mentioned in verse 17. This is not "common fear," but very specific fear of God's judgment. Perfect love casts out fear because of God's reigning within us. Therefore there is no fear of judgment, because the infilling of God - who is love - casts it out.

I think that a definition of "fear" is needed here, because there's a lot of confusion about what type of fear we're talking about.

I agree there does need to be a definition of fear to know what we are talking about.

I see cowards as those who will not step up and obey God.

Could you do me a favor? Would you post the scripture you are talking about as you are speaking? Please? I'd GREATLY appreciate it.

Which verses are you referring to? I was responding to the ones that you had posted earlier. The ones I mentioned above are 1 John 4:16-18, and the one you posted was Rev. 21:8.

Incidentally, the "cowardly" in Rev. 21:8 are unbelievers, not believers.

Okay, Thank you.

The additional scriptures you brought in and including the one that I first brought forward are:

16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:16-18

To reiterate the point you were making, I've copied and pasted what you wrote. This is just so we have some continuity and maybe cut down on any confusion.

The type of fear described in 1John 4:18 is the fear of the judgment, which is mentioned in verse 17. This is not "common fear," but very specific fear of God's judgment. Perfect love casts out fear because of God's reigning within us. Therefore there is no fear of judgment, because the infilling of God - who is love - casts it out.

You are right. Verse 17 is specifically speaking of judgment, and verse 18 tells us, as I read it, that those who have fear have torment. Do you restrict that torment to the time of judgment, or do you think that those who sin now can also be tormented (and torment others) due to their sins?

I italicized part of your above quote just so I could reference it. As I read verse 17, perfected love doesn't fear judgment because of a qualifier: The qualification for escaping judgment is, according to this verse, being in this world and being the same as Christ. Is that what you are meaning in the italicized comment?

Incidentally, the "cowardly" in Rev. 21:8 are unbelievers, not believers.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 21:8

Why would the verse repeat the unbelieving twice?

[nikki1]

Learning to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit is not an easy task. It took me quite a few years to learn how to hear His voice.

EVERYBODY HEARS THE VOICE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

That's his job, and it's not restricted to those who have "learned how" to listen.

This would be counterproductive.

Before I accepted the Lord into my life, I heard him every night as my head hit the pillow. Saying just the right things that I needed to hear to bring me to the Lord. And to convict me for my sins.

The holy spirit is not exclusive to Christians. He talks to everybody, and everybody can hear him. Some choose to ignore him. But they can't turn him off.

If you had a problem with hearing The Holy Spirit, it's because you were ignoring him.

To all those prospective Christians out there reading this, let me say this... EVERY SINGLE PART OF THE CHRISTIAN EXPERIENCE IS AVAILABLE TO YOU. THERE IS NO EXCLUSIVITY. So come, join us.

-

I hope you do not think I was implying that hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit was not for everyone, because this is not what I meant, nor did I say that it was not His job, nor was it restricted only to those who learn to hear his voice. When I first became born again, I didn't know too much about the Holy Spirit, and yes, I did have to learn to listen to His voice and it took me quite awhile. That was my experience. Maybe you're experience was different. I don't think there is any one person that knows all there is to know about the Holy Spirit

Blessings,

[Permie]

Yes, I agree.

What causes greed? Fear of lack, perhaps?

What causes lying? Fear that the truth will cause a problem?

As you probably know, I believe that at our core, our real selves is love. Perfected Love is what we are meant to be.

With that belief of mine in mind, please consider:

Anger is love frustrated.

Lust is love unfulfilled.

Greed is love unsatisfied.

Lying is love untrusted.

Sloth is love without a purpose.

Revenge is love betrayed.

Pride is love contained: bottled up in self.

Jealousy is love without a foundation.

All of those errors of unrighteous anger, lust, greed, lying, sloth, revenge, pride, jealousy and the list could go on are all are sins which are corrected by perfected love wherein no fear exists.

you dont seem to understand that to "fear" the Lord does not mean to be afraid of Him, it means to respect Him. One of the definitions of fear is "reverential awe". now, do you want to tell me we should not have reverential awe of the Lord?

See post 51, second paragraph.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Permie

[Permie]

See post 51, second paragraph.

so, then why some almost 20 post later are you still talking about the wrong kind of "fear" of the Lord in respect to Christians and our love for God? if you know what it means to Fear the Lord, why are you still making this strawman argument?

I'd like to know why you are asking me questions. You have told me that I was a heretic and to go away.

I have left you to God.

Remember.

[OneLight]

Wow ... leave for a few minutes and everything starts to go downhill. Time to take a break ...

[OneLight]

I am going to try once again to have a thread that is not full of finger pointing, accusations, name calling and such. What this thread is about is listening to the Holy Spirit, so lets keep it on track, discussing the subject in a mature manner. If this again turns into demeaning another brethren, I will close it permanently.

[traveller]

And as is usual the proving scripture was ignored that said that there is no fear in perfected love. And just why would that be?

As for the healthy respect, correct, I agree. Same holds true, when we respect God we will obey Him. If we don't, well there's plenty of scripture about that. The first whom are thrown in the lake of fire are the fearful.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 21:8

Permie, your theology is a bit strange to me. Do you know that it means when it says "But the fearful..." in Revelation 21:8? It means "the cowardly."

As OneLight pointed out, you cannot engage in two completely contradictory activities at the same time. One cannot love and hate at the same time. Therefore they are opposites. However one can fear God and love Him at the same time.

The type of fear described in 1John 4:18 is the fear of the judgment, which is mentioned in verse 17. This is not "common fear," but very specific fear of God's judgment. Perfect love casts out fear because of God's reigning within us. Therefore there is no fear of judgment, because the infilling of God - who is love - casts it out.

I think that a definition of "fear" is needed here, because there's a lot of confusion about what type of fear we're talking about.

I agree there does need to be a definition of fear to know what we are talking about.

I see cowards as those who will not step up and obey God.

Could you do me a favor? Would you post the scripture you are talking about as you are speaking? Please? I'd GREATLY appreciate it.

Which verses are you referring to? I was responding to the ones that you had posted earlier. The ones I mentioned above are 1 John 4:16-18, and the one you posted was Rev. 21:8.

Incidentally, the "cowardly" in Rev. 21:8 are unbelievers, not believers.

Okay, Thank you.

The additional scriptures you brought in and including the one that I first brought forward are:

16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:16-18

To reiterate the point you were making, I've copied and pasted what you wrote. This is just so we have some continuity and maybe cut down on any confusion.

The type of fear described in 1John 4:18 is the fear of the judgment, which is mentioned in verse 17. This is not "common fear," but very specific fear of God's judgment. Perfect love casts out fear because of God's reigning within us. Therefore there is no fear of judgment, because the infilling of God - who is love - casts it out.

You are right. Verse 17 is specifically speaking of judgment, and verse 18 tells us, as I read it, that those who have fear have torment. Do you restrict that torment to the time of judgment, or do you think that those who sin now can also be tormented (and torment others) due to their sins?

I italicized part of your above quote just so I could reference it. As I read verse 17, perfected love doesn't fear judgment because of a qualifier: The qualification for escaping judgment is, according to this verse, being in this world and being the same as Christ. Is that what you are meaning in the italicized comment?

Incidentally, the "cowardly" in Rev. 21:8 are unbelievers, not believers.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 21:8

Why would the verse repeat the unbelieving twice?

Not meaning to speak for Ovedya - but if you're referring to "the fearful, and unbelieving" as being two separate things, then you should know that AND, {kai} is a connecting word.

Kai

and, also, even, indeed, but.

It's joining fearful and unbelieving, as a means of enforcing unbelieving. It doesnt make it two separate things, but rather one bigger thing.

kai

Pronunciation

kī' (Key)

Part of Speech

conjuction

Root Word (Etymology)

Apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force

[OneLight]

shameless bump ...

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

As you probably know, I believe that at our core, our real selves is love.

That's incorrect according to Scripture.

Jer