Is Jesus God?

[Guest shiloh357]

All I am saying is that I am not a 'fringe' interpreter. I agree that the majority opinion is not nec. correct.

Who said the majority is incorrect? I said that both "one" and "alone" are accurate.

I use his work PRECISELY because he is trinitarian. He would rather see it your way, yes? But he is an honest scholar and should be commended.

But it is wrong to use someone's words in a way they did not intend for their words to be used. He was not trying disprove trinitarianism and for to you to misuse his work to disprove trinitarianism when that was not his intention, shows a lack of integrity on your part. He was intending to show that the grammatical construction was to be understood in contract to polytheism or polyYHVHsim. He was not trying to disprove trinitarianism which holds to a monotheistic view of God.

[Guest shiloh357]

Don't give up on me just yet. I can go a few more rounds, although I'm not exactly in shape.

I am looking at your join date and realize how long you've been around. Quite impressive, sir. Remind me not to demean you like I might have previously.

It is obvious you are firmly entrenched in your belief. Shall we just call it a draw? Or do you want some more?

Stop kidding yourself. You are old news.

I got you on the first principle of the universe, by the way. Can't stick your neck out and one-up me?

You didn't "get me" on anything. I am not going to argue with a lame made up concept that has no basis in Scripture or reality. You admitted you made up. I told you that my principle is the glory of God and I don't have to make that up. I can show that from the Bible. So you can lose the pride. You dont' really have anything offer.

[Guest shiloh357]

The singular unity of three is a self-contradictory statement. Anyone but a trinitarian can see this.

Did I say anything about a singular unity of three?? I said that "one and alone are accurate" God can be one God AND He can also be the ONLY God. Those not contradictory. There is one God who is one.

You have to prove a compound echad of the Adonai, and this is NEVER in the Torah.

I don't have to prove an argument I did not raise.

But and yet I challenge you to prove me wrong.

The only thing proven here is your poor reading comprehension skills. When you can respond to what I actually said, you might have an intelligent argument to make.

[Guest shiloh357]

Wait a minute. Are you a trinitarian or not? Three persons and one being? Three hypostasis and one ousia? 'Cmon now. Fess up.

I am trinitarian, but I have long said on this very board that the shema does not support trinitarian theology. It is the wrong Scripture to use. God has revealed Himself in three persons, but He is one singular being. That is a mystery. It is something that to the human mind, doesn't make sense, and it is not intended to make sense. God exists in a realm of reality for which we have no point of reference. There is nothing in this earth that can really be used to describe Him.

In other contexts, the word "echad" is used to describe a unity (e.g. man and wife as "one" flesh), but never in reference to God.

[OneLight]

Tell me, why do you believe others don't believe in the Shema? The Shema is derived from the very same scripture we all uphold as the word of God. What I see when reading this is God speaking to the children of Israel. The concept can be applied to us today, if taken spiritually, but not literal in many parts of it. The Shema states:

Deuteronomy 6:4-9

Hebrew

Sh'ma Yis'ra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.

Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.

Which part do you not believe?

Yaaas I think the Echad of the Adonai. But your extensive knowlege of the whole keeboodle is impressive. Too bad you got the first part wrong.

Would you prefer the KJV?

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

How about the American Standard Version?

Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah:

Or, how about the word translation from Hebrew?

shmo ishrel ieue alei•nu ieue achd:

hear-you l Israel Yahweh Elohim-of-us Yahweh one:

It makes no difference because they all mean the same. You are just nit-picking on this one.

This is a picture of what I hold as true. It does not take away from the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit in any way.

Er, I never liked that diagram.

Is that all you ahve to say about it? I was hoping you would divulge more of your reasoning as to why you disagree.

How do you explain 1 John 5:6-7?

This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness

in heaven

: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

The last part of the last verse is most assuredly one of the only known probable inserts in scripture, the Comma Johanneum.

Part of the vast trinitarian conspiracy which has been a monkey on the back of the mother church.

Shouldn't treat your mother that way.

What you see as a conspiracy is just that, what you see. Are you a follower of the Critical Text?

[Guest shiloh357]

Jesus cannot be God because Jesus spoke of his God as the one God. The same one of Abraham Isaac and Moses.

The problem is that you need to understand when Jesus is speaking as God and when He is speaking as man. Jesus was both God and man, 100% of each. Jesus prayed, dealt with temptation, etc. as a man in order to be a righteous model for us to follow. He related to God as a man in order to show us how to do it.

Jesus also did things that only God can do. He exercized personal power over nature, death and demons. He also claimed to be eternal life, which is really over the top if Jesus is only a man. He also absolved sin from a person which even His enemies acknowledged as something belonging to God. He even recieves worship, before and after His resurrection/ascension.

In addition, Jesus is to be proclamed "Lord" which in the first century, when Bible was being written in the shadow of the Roman Empire, it was a very radical and dangerous thing to call anyone but Caeasar "Lord." You need to realize that "Lord" in terms of Caesar, was a defied title, and the Bible sets Jesus up as a deity in contest with Caesar. To declar Caesar as "Lord" was to acknowledge his deity. So when the writers of the NT declared that Jesus is "Lord" that deified rivalry between the god Caesar vs. the true "Lord" and "God" Jesus, would not have been lost on those believers in the first century. To declare Jesus as "Lord" was to proclaim Him as God.

[Seekinganswers123]

Jesus cannot be God because Jesus spoke of his God as the one God. The same one of Abraham Isaac and Moses.

The problem is that you need to understand when Jesus is speaking as God and when He is speaking as man. Jesus was both God and man, 100% of each. Jesus prayed, dealt with temptation, etc. as a man in order to be a righteous model for us to follow. He related to God as a man in order to show us how to do it.

Jesus also did things that only God can do. He exercized personal power over nature, death and demons. He also claimed to be eternal life, which is really over the top if Jesus is only a man. He also absolved sin from a person which even His enemies acknowledged as something belonging to God. He even recieves worship, before and after His resurrection/ascension.

In addition, Jesus is to be proclamed "Lord" which in the first century, when Bible was being written in the shadow of the Roman Empire, it was a very radical and dangerous thing to call anyone but Caeasar "Lord." You need to realize that "Lord" in terms of Caesar, was a defied title, and the Bible sets Jesus up as a deity in contest with Caesar. To declar Caesar as "Lord" was to acknowledge his deity. So when the writers of the NT declared that Jesus is "Lord" that deified rivalry between the god Caesar vs. the true "Lord" and "God" Jesus, would not have been lost on those believers in the first century. To declare Jesus as "Lord" was to proclaim Him as God.

I agree with Shiloh. Jesus can be 100% God and human, just as i am 100% human and 100% self-aware.

[Seekinganswers123]

I agree with Shiloh. Jesus can be 100% God and human, just as i am 100% human and 100% self-aware.

He didn't seem to be aware he was YHWH. He never said he was, although it might seem so INDIRECTLY.

If Jesus is God

and

God is YHWH

then

Jesus is YHWH

[Seekinganswers123]

I agree with Shiloh. Jesus can be 100% God and human, just as i am 100% human and 100% self-aware.

He didn't seem to be aware he was YHWH. He never said he was, although it might seem so INDIRECTLY.

If Jesus is God

and

God is YHWH

then

Jesus is YHWH

What are you a disciple of Matt Slick? Pleeze.

Show me where the first proposition is true. I deny it. Thank you.

Jesus did say that he was God. Well, he is of God, because he was born of Him

[Seekinganswers123]

I agree with Shiloh. Jesus can be 100% God and human, just as i am 100% human and 100% self-aware.

He didn't seem to be aware he was YHWH. He never said he was, although it might seem so INDIRECTLY.

If Jesus is God

and

God is YHWH

then

Jesus is YHWH

What are you a disciple of Matt Slick? Pleeze.

Show me where the first proposition is true. I deny it. Thank you.

Jesus did say that he was God. Well, he is of God, because he was born of Him

Eerp. Okay, so you agree with me, he never actually SAID "I am YHWH."

Born of God. Yes of the Holy Spirit and woman. Does that make him automatically YHWH? I don't assume so.

The question was whether or not Christ was created or if he just is, like YHWH. Then there are two, doing the equal harmony cosmic dance, if you will.

Well, if we can not understand what no time is then we cannot know if jesus always existed.